Michelle Lynne 126
GMT20231122-192556_Recording_separate1: ​ [00:00:00] Hey everybody, welcome back to the podcast
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: . I'm Michelle Lynn, your host for the Design for the Creative Mind podcast. I want to introduce you today to Jeffrey Madoff. Jeff's career [00:01:00] spans fashion design, film production, producing, and teaching. He's an author and a playwright. Among his clients are Ralph Lauren, Tiffany, Victoria's Secret, Harvard School for Public Health, and Radio City Music Hall.
Madoff is an adjunct professor at Parsons School of Design in New York City. And his book, Creative Careers, Making a Living with Your Ideas, is an Amazon bestseller. It's based on his class. Madoff wrote and is producing a play, Personality, the Lloyd Price Musical, about the life of Rock and Roll Hall of Fame legend Lloyd Price.
This actually opened June of 2023 at the Studebaker Theater in Chicago. this video. He's been a featured speaker at the Psy Center for Innovative Thinking at Yale University, Princeton, NYU, and Wharton School. That's a mouthful,
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: sorry. We're out of time. So thank you so much for having me on the [00:02:00] show.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: That's awesome. And did I pronounce that right? Is it the Psy Center for Innovative Thinking?
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: Yes, that's right. I
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Oh, fantastic. Well, I'm so glad you're here. I mean, with your experience and background, we could probably talk for hours, but we will, uh, limit our conversation for our listeners and see how things go from here. Um, Okay, so with all of the experience that you've had and the background and professionalism that you bring to this conversation, how do you, what is, how do you describe yourself?
What is your title? What Even because that's, that's a lot of experience and I'm just, I'm, I'm a bit of a loss right now. What would you say your title is if we had to just introduce you to somebody at a cocktail party?
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: guess it depends on the nature of the cocktail party. I might be introduced as Jake and Audrey's dad. I might be introduced as Margaret's husband.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Mm hmm.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: I [00:03:00] might be introduced as the playwright of Personality, the Lloyd Price musical.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Mm hmm.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: or somebody might just say my name and the conversation starts to define who I am.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: So in regards to all of the experiences that you've had, it all circles around creativity.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: Yes, that's right.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Where did you start?
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: Where did I
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Where did your career start?
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: Uh,
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: You just of the womb directing and writing and
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: Yes. I, I walked out actually of world.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Your mom was happy.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: Yes. Uh, well, I guess, you know, I had, I grew up in Akron, Ohio, so. I had, uh, some novel jobs. My parents had, uh, retail stores in Akron women's and children's clothing. So, uh, you know, [00:04:00] I unpacked the boxes and received the shipments that sort of learned how to look at invoices and reconcile deliveries and all that.
then, you know, my mom would have me set up an area of the store when I was a little kid. So I did that. So by osmosis. I, you know, I got paid for doing that, even though they actually did give me room and board many years before I went off to college. But, you know, I learned certain things there.
And the main thing was, is that my parents were very supportive of whatever it was I did. You know, if they saw that I was engaged and happy, uh, that was good. And I guess it was also good because I wasn't an arson or something. So fact,
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: That level of happiness would
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: yes, that would have, that would have mitigated some of the happiness they had about me.
Uh, but you know, so when I showed a like of drawing, uh, [00:05:00] they would bring home big sheets of craft paper from the store and I could draw whatever I want, put it on the walls in my room. My room was like my room. I could do what wanted to do. And so the first time I got paid for anything, uh, Was, you know, I would get some money for working for my folks, but I also, you know, mowed lawns and shoveled driveways after the snow and things like that, but along with those kind of traditional thing, and I had a paper route, you know, those don't exist anymore, but I new papers, uh, yeah, and I was a blacksmith.
No, it wasn't a blacksmith.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: that's just one of the few careers that you haven't addressed.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: That's right. Yes. The careers that no longer exist, a dinosaur walker, you know, things like that I didn't do. I don't do anymore. Uh, but, uh, you know, I, I had a movie theater in the basement of my home cause [00:06:00] I loved film from when I was a kid and I love fooling around with our eight millimeter movie camera.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Oh yeah.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: And I rented movies that were silent movies. Uh, and I would borrow my sister's. actually take my sister's, I don't know, I have an older sister, her uh, portable hi fi at that time records and I would make the soundtrack to the, uh, to the film that we're watching. So I would, I would, I had a reel to reel tape recorder and I record the sounds and record the music.
And then I would also draw the posters and, uh, had a little printing press, these things where you put these little rubber letters into these little metal holders.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: can picture that.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: Yeah, and uh, when you turn the crank and it hits the ink and you print posters and I put them around the neighborhood and [00:07:00] would get 15, 20 kids from the neighborhood and they'd come and watch, you know, a triple feature and, uh, and I could go to downtown Akron and buy candy at a discount.
And so I would sell it. And, uh, my dad would buy these tins of, uh, popcorn. And, you know, we had the lunch bags from my school lunch. And so I would sell of popcorn. That was low overhead. That was a lot of, that was, that was good profit because I didn't pay my dad for the popcorn
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Or the bags.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: or the bag. That's
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Oh my gosh,
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: Or the basement rental or anything else for that matter.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: yeah, because they were technically um, paying your room and board all together.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: That's right.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: You've been a creative and an entrepreneur for as long as memory holds for, to, to a certain extent.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: Well, that's right. Because, uh, although I never thought of [00:08:00] it, you know, when I was a kid as being an entrepreneur, you mom and dad both started their business. My older sister, to this day, has her own business. She has a very high end retail shop in Charleston, South Carolina. And so, yeah, it's pretty.
We just, we were there for Thanksgiving. And so I grew up in an environment where I never thought about. I hope I find a good job. That was just not a thing. I always kind of assumed I'd start my own business. And that's, that's what I did. And you know, even when I mentioned about being a paper boy, uh, You know, I had to buy the newspapers wholesale, sell them retail, you know, and so I had to also collect money every week, every month from, you know, , the people who lived on the route who subscribed to [00:09:00] the Akron Beacon Journal, which was everybody
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Mm hmm.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: And so a lot of things I just learned really young and you know, one may not think of being a paper boy is entrepreneurial, but in fact it is.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: I absolutely agree with you because just the skills that you learn from approaching people to try to get them on your on your route and then following up and collecting the money that's I think that's a lot of skill. Sadly, it's just kind of overlooked in, in the whole evolution of children's lives , as you went through , and develop those skills.
But they, it brings it to today when you have accomplished so much and had to get out there on the front end of your career and start forging your own path. Did you, let me ask you this. How did you get started in the business that you're in now? And I know that that that encompasses quite a bit, but how did you make that leap into [00:10:00] the whole fashion design film production producing like where did that? Where did you enter and for the audience? My my goal is is that we are kind of sharing that it's not overnight success It's, it's sta stepping into where you are today and probably battling a little bit of imposter syndrome along the way, but can you walk us through , how you broke into a business
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: when I robbed that store at that time. Is that what you're talking about? Breaking into the
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Yes. If you could please give us the details on that
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: I just have make sure I have make sure statute of limitations is up on that one. But, uh, well, first of all, I believe that everything you do informs everything else that you do. So the things that I learned, you know, when I had a paper route, the things even that I did, you know, uh, when I had the theater in the basement, forget technical [00:11:00] skills I learned in terms of sound and, and movies and so on.
It was also. You know, I knew that if I could go downtown and get candy bars at that time for, you know, three for, let's say 10 cents and I could, I could sell them for 20 cents each. I could make a profit and go back and buy candy bars for the next week. So there were certain skills that I accumulated along the way and I worked in a retail store, uh, my parents store when I was a little kid, and then I talked my way into a job at, at that time, a newly opening shopping mall.
I worked in a shoe store. And I think that that kind of cold calling, uh, walking up to somebody, may I help you, and having to engage them was incredibly valuable. And I was also speaking of, of jobs that no longer exist. [00:12:00] I was a fuller brush man. Do you ever hear of Fuller
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Oh, yes, yes. Oh my gosh.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: So I was the youngest Fuller Brush man in the United States. And, uh, you know, and they actually wanted me to teach sales classes because I, I did quite well at it. Uh, but the reason I think that I did well is, you know, I was a cute 16 year old kid. Not a guy knocking on your door that had scotch on his breath at noon, you know so, uh,
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: And smelled like a pack of cigarettes.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: that's right.
That's right. So, uh, you know, all those things informed. what I did and gave me a certain confidence that I could handle things. And, uh, so my first real plunge into the creative aspect was I had graduated from college, uh, University of Wisconsin. I was working in a [00:13:00] boutique and, uh, I got a call from a friend of mine who had graduated a year before me from up together
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: What you in school?
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: I had a double major in philosophy and psychology.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Oh, interesting.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: So, you know, I wanted to have two majors that would guarantee that I couldn't get a job and make a living doing them. I'm actually very happy that those were my degrees because they have, they have me well, very much so.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: I think that goes back to something that you said earlier about the fact that, um, and I, I didn't write it down so I don't have it exactly, but everything leads to something else.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: Well, everything you do informs everything else you
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: thank you. Yes. And just what you said about your degrees, they have served you well in the areas that you actually have applied and been paid for.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: Yeah, and in life. I mean, you know, philosophy teaches you aside from [00:14:00] exposing you to the ideas of the ages and and religion and all these things that also is about critical thinking,
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Mm hmm.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: we are our culture woefully lacks at this point. Unfortunately,
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: paper route.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: but the consequences are much more dangerous
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Agreed.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: as a result.
And, uh, you know where you can have informed. Debate, and you have to agree, but you can still respect each other and talk.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Absolutely.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: I'm just saying that I think that that's really Im important and the psychology aspect is knowing how people's minds work, you know, and how do you engage and, and how do people respond and how do you read body language and all of these things.
Uh, so. My major had, on the surface, nothing to do with what I ended up doing, but in reality it had [00:15:00] everything to do. With what I was doing. So I'm very happy that I had that very broad liberal arts education,
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Mm hmm.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: because I think it exposed me to so many ways of thinking, uh, and how to ask questions and, and, uh, how really ideas are formed that all of those things I thought were really Important.
And by the way, I didn't have that in mind when I was doing it. I just liked the subjects. there were because there were no right answers in philosophy. There were no right answers. It was just it was about discussion and logic being able to further a good argument.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: So how Because you came from this Uh, philosophical and psychological aspect into the creative realm, how would you say they play on one another, argue with one another. Like, there seems to be quite a few areas of confluence. [00:16:00] I don't know if that's the right word, but. Um, where they, they overlap.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: Well, I think they do, because whether it's a painting. line of clothing, a play, a a piece of music, or developing a conceptual way of thinking. It all starts with an abstract idea, meaning it hasn't been actualized yet, it's in your head, and then you've got to somehow get it out of your head and into the conversational realm or written realm where the ideas can be expressed and challenged and enhanced and grow and all of that.
And so I think it's very much creative. Uh, in terms of that. So, uh, so it wasn't the kind of leap. It may seem to be on the surface.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Mm mm.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: because philosophy is the translation is study of [00:17:00] life. And so, uh, life is what we're living. You know,
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Every day.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: that's right. That's right.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: No, I think that's interesting because when you first said what your majors were, it seemed, it seems so far outside of the realm of what you ended up doing. But when you dig down just a little bit further, it, it impacts everything. And having that knowledge, I'm sure it has , taken you further just with that foundation and without, without even that expectation.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: I think that, you know, if you consider yourself creative, uh, and part of being creative is Yeah. open to ideas open to two ways of thinking of ways of expressing of doing things that, uh, you know, it's not a linear recipe, whatever it is you want to do. If you want to be an interior designer, you can look at.
Well, most rooms have four walls and, you know, what are we going to do [00:18:00] to make that appealing? Well, how do you ask the right questions to a potential client? How do you establish the budget for what the job will be the delivery time of the different? Items you need to execute your idea, getting them aligned with that idea.
So, you know, as, as your audience being made up of interior designers, they need to know budgets, they need to know delivery. They need to know labor costs. They need to know all of these things, whether you're in a retail store, whether you're buying paint and you're a painter, you know, and you've got rental on your studio and you've got to buy all that stuff, you know?
And so there's a lot more that's in common and shared among pursuits than there is difference.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: It's interesting because you go, you tend to go back to the business aspect of it. And, you know, when I read your bio, I'm like, Oh, Jeff is just total creative and has gone through [00:19:00] this path, but it's so important. And you embody the fact that not only do you have the business acumen, but it's blended with the creativity in order to be successful.
Any business person needs to have that combination, whether it comes naturally or if it's a learned product.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: [00:20:00] Well, you know, I think that unfortunately it's very limiting, but most people look at things in a rather binary way. And it's, you know, like my play, for instance, people say to me, well, is this just [00:21:00] a passion project is, is, uh, this a commercial project? And my answer is yes. It's
It's a passion project that I want to be commercially successful because this is how I want to make my living.
So it's not a hobby. You know, if you like painting watercolors and you enjoy doing that, uh, that's all great. If you want to sell your watercolors and make a living at it, you've got to approach it in a different kind of way. None of the things I've done, whether it's fashion design, playwriting, filmmaking, so on.
They're not hobbies. They're, those are careers. Uh, I've just had a number of careers, but they're, you know, you could think, wow, he can't hold a job. But, uh,
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: No,
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: you know, so, so I think that, you know, it's one of those old tropes [00:22:00] that, well, you know, I'm, I'm good at business, but I'm not very creative. Or I'm really creative and I, you know, business, I don't want to soil my hands. And it's about survival.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: well. And I think that oftentimes our thoughts shape our beliefs that turns into our identity. So whatever we've been told as we were growing up or just being influenced by society is like, you can be creative, but you can't be a business person or you can be a business person, but you can't be creative.
And I think you've proven that completely incorrect. And that's You know, where this podcast and audience comes from, it's like my own passion project that is commercialized. It's, it's, you know, let's go back to that philosophy aspect, like I'm going to go down a bunny trail, but from a philosophical standpoint, like where does it start?
Where does, like, this might get edited out because I have no clue what I'm [00:23:00] saying, but, but from the standpoint of, Our current identity and the beliefs that we have, like you said, that are very binary, where does that start in your opinion or from? Is it from our thoughts? Is it from our childhood? Is it from the news that we watch?
, you have obviously not paid attention to what society tells us because your mindset has just been, get this done. I'm, I'm assuming, , do you know what I'm saying? Can you talk towards that a little bit?
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: You're talking about, if I'm understanding you, you're talking about, uh, you know, how do you break out of that binary notion
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Maybe so. Or how does it get started and how do we get stuck in it? And then, yes, how do you break out of it?
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: Well, there are so many factors, you know, uh, I think for the most part, all kids are creative, [00:24:00] uh, and there's different levels of creativity and so but all kids are creative. The more they're encouraged, the more creative they'll be. Having said that, it's also true that a lot of people are compelled to create because their world was so miserable and they weren't supported and that an art became an escape, uh, another way to apply and express their.
Their talents that they got no support for. So. I like to think that I've been fueled by positive forces because my parents always, uh, never tried to stifle my creativity, never said, Well, when are you going to get a real job? Uh, and never challenged any of that sort of So when I would meet people and, you know, I'd say, well, I'm a filmmaker and it's what's your, what's your backup?
Plan and said, well, you know, if I was going to be a dentist or an accountant or a lawyer, you wouldn't ask me what my backup plan [00:25:00] is. Well, this is profession that I'm going to pursue. Uh, and so my backup plan is to be clever and fall back on my intelligence, my savvy, my creativity or whatever.
And, and, and I, by the way, I would say that is probably at best third on the list. Uh, you know, because. You're an entrepreneur. Perseverance and resilience
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Yes. I don't know if I, yeah, I don't think anybody tells you that early in your career of
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: No, well, that's right. That's right. They don't. And, uh, And, you know, I wasn't privy to the full range of things my parents went through, as when I got older and I would talk to them about, you know, things I never thought about when I was a kid. Like, did you guys ever [00:26:00] have any hard times? Because there were all, there was always food on the table.
We didn't want for anything, but you know, the life you have when you're growing up in your family is the life, you know,
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Yes.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: and so what's normal. has a very wide definition. Uh, and to some people, it's normal that the father husband comes home and has a couple of martinis. And, uh, you know, I'm talking about that era.
And, and, uh,
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: wait, I thought you were talking about my house. But yeah, they come home with a couple of martinis and mom's cooking.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: and, uh, you know, that's that sort of 50s cliche. I would hear my parents talking about, you know, the day's business, you And so it was, uh, that was just normal to me. so it was also normal for my [00:27:00] era, which was, uh, which I like to think still continues. I'm still in my era. Uh, but you know, a female as a business owner and boss, as my mom was, very unusual then, you my dad used to get a lot of crap because they'd say, Ralph, what's the matter?
Can't you, uh, take care of your wife? And they would say to my mom, can't your husband support you? And, and, uh, she worked because she wanted to work and that was a big part of who she was and how she expressed her talents. So, you know, it was interesting when I looked, we all construct narratives. Looking at the rear view mirror, know, because those narratives only come from one's past.
we, we have a compelling need as humans to make sense. of that. So it seems like, you know, I, I hate it when people say, yeah, I was destined that you do this. There's not destined that I should do this. I did this because I wanted to do [00:28:00] this. not about destiny. Don't put your future in the hands of something that's so ephemeral and you have no control over
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Well, and I think that that also goes back to the question that I didn't know how to ask is that You grew up with this being modeled for you, therefore your identity was kind of shaped, well not kind of, but it was shaped from the experiences that you had, even just around the dinner table listening to your parents talk about business, and at the same time they fostered your creativity and allowed you to express yourself without hindrance.
So you, this, this goes back to that, how does this get formed and a lot of it comes down to what's in the home. Even like you said, sometimes creativity is fostered by trying to escape from your existing reality. So, that's interesting in respect to the fact, especially that your mom was working back [00:29:00] in quote unquote in the day.
That you had that, um, that table talk, which most kids in the fifties probably didn't because like you said, dad comes home has a couple cocktails. Mom's cooking dinner, serving them and takes care of all the business at home.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: Yeah. And I think that we are all the we're all in progress, all in process. And, uh, you know, so and we're all formed, I think, especially by those very early in life experiences.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Yeah,
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: And I think that a huge area that is only beginning to be talked about, uh, is the effect of trauma and how trauma affects young kids.
And trauma means different things. There's no one definition there, but, but for the sake of our talk, it's, it's something that somehow, [00:30:00] uh, has a huge impact on who you are and how you respond to things.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: right. The formation of your character to a certain
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: that's right. Yeah, if you see, if you see, to use a dark example, but you know, if you grow up in a household and there's a physically abusive parent in And you see that that's how arguments get settled, , then you think that's how arguments get settled
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Right.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: you somehow are fortunate enough to realize there's another way and you can break that pattern of abuse.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: yeah, absolutely. Because I think it perpetuates throughout the generations because it needs to be broken at some point. And it's not easy,
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: That's right.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: not easy at all. So with that, um, how would you say you would foster that creativity regardless of how it's born? Is there a way that you take that inspiration from the [00:31:00] inside and get it out?
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: That is, uh, that is by doing it. And, uh, you know, I think that it's it's interesting. Nike has brilliant slogan that they have experimented a number of times and trying to get away from just do it, but it happens to be genius,
they will never improve on that because the meaning goes so much deeper.
You know, uh, and that everyone resonates with everybody. Uh, and I think it's that, you know, I would say to my students first day of class. How many of you have walked into a gallery, and thought, Oh, I could do that. And just about everybody raises their hand. I said, Well, what's the difference between you and that person? And there was silence. And then I would notice an expression on somebody's [00:32:00] face. And I would say, Well, Michelle, what do you think? What? What? What's the difference? And then it's silence. They actually did it. I said, Yeah, they did it. They didn't just talk about it. They didn't just think about it. They actually did it.
But when you do something That also puts you in the position to be criticized or rejected. from a very early age, people learn to avoid the discomfort that that can cause. And, you know, if that's counteracted with healthy support, then you care less about. That not that it
ever
goes
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Goes away.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: but that's really important.
So you see, in a very early age, uh, kids start to shut down in certain ways. It could be because of parents could because of teachers. It could be because of their peers who make fun they did. So, you know, I [00:33:00] think that that kind of growth again, it it it can be Diametrically opposed things are true at the same time. That that creative expression can come out in a way from a dark place,
expression can come out in a way from a more positive or healthy place. But the resulting art is still great either way.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: So, how would you tell somebody to, like, literally just do it, but also to get over the, fear of being judged, of not being good enough, maybe imposter syndrome of, I wasn't quote unquote classically trained as an interior designer, therefore I cannot do it.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: Yeah, it's funny because All the different things that I've done. never, I never went to school for real,
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Right.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: you know, and I, and I'm self taught and all those areas. Uh, [00:34:00] and that was a combination combination of. If I like something, I have the confidence that I can learn how to do it.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: There you go.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: so, you know, because to me, what is a very powerful thing, which also isn't talked about in schools where you're learning to learning some creative field is the power of engagement.
What is it that you can engage with? That lights you up that that fires up that passion where you don't really even get a sense of the time passing because you're just so into it and you're so engaged, you know, and nothing goes like that all the time. Or there's times that you're like fallow in between those times of great excitement and all that because, you know, life is a roller coaster ride to.
Things don't always go how you want and they certainly don't proceed in a linear way either.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Yeah, that's the truth.[00:35:00]
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: So no, go ahead.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: I was just gonna say, and I think once you give yourself permission to not have the, uh, the peaks all the time, there are the peaks and the valleys. Once you give yourself permission to experience the valleys and recognize it's not a failure, it's just part of the journey, that it really does allow you, um, at least for myself, it allows you to experience it.
At the core, exactly what you, exactly what you feel like you're meant to be doing at the time, and just letting go of any expectations or, which is, which is hard to do because I think we all have high expectations for ourselves, and then we also, um, assume people are judging us when in reality I don't think they're thinking about anybody except for themselves.
We just get lost in that.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: I think you're right. Yeah, you're not nearly as important to them as you are [00:36:00] thinking you are in terms of your level of embarrassment or, or whatever. Uh, and I think you, you hit on something key. And that is that you give yourself permission. Now, it's important to get, you know, if it's the permission of your parents or whatever.
But when you start modifying your behaviors, and again, I'm not talking about aberrant behavior, when you start Trying to please all the time rather than do, uh, you know, that constricts one's world.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: And your creativity because you could, if you're copying somebody else's design or their style and it does, it's not congruent with your tendencies, it's never going to be, um, your best
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: Well, and it takes, you know, uh, having a distinctive voice [00:37:00] through what you do and what's distinctive by definition isn't defined by what everybody else is doing. You know, what's
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: When did you find your voice?
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: uh, Well, I've had to find it in a few different things, meaning, meaning, you know, when I was designing clothes, what I did, and I guess this has been the constant, the constant compass for the direction I want to go. Uh, I designed clothes that I wanted to wear. Or and since I designed both men's and women's clothing, or that I thought it would be cool to see a woman in I started doing film work. Uh, I wanted to do ideas that I thought were cool. And the kind of people that I hired my editors, the cinematographers, all of that. I wanted them to be invested in their work. [00:38:00] I wanted them to want to show their friends what they were working on because they thought it was cool. And again, that goes back to engagement, which I think is incredibly powerful. And another powerful thing, when you are building production crews, for instance, for film or for a play or something like that, is Building the right kind of team and knowing where there are complementary talents and my mantra is that you find good people through other good people, so I don't care whether it's interior design or I'm, I'm, I'm doing a play or making a film, you know, whether it's the, the best person to reupholster something because they just do fantastic work or or the, um, Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. cabinetmaker is going to make unique pieces for you. You find good people through other good people. [00:39:00] And that's true, I think, in all lines of work.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: I think also just by being yourself and being your authentic personality. You're going to attract others who are, um, receiving of it or who share in it or whatever the case may be. Um, I, I think finding your voice is a key aspect of entrepreneurial lifestyle, not just the lifestyle, but the entrepreneurial journey.
If you're not, if you're not true to who you are, then you're going to be attracting individuals who are not aligned with your overall vision and goals. Does that make sense?
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: I think that, you know, a lot of people don't know who they are. And, and a lot of people, you know, get to middle age and maybe they've done quite well financially. But it also kind of seems hollow to them, and it seems hollow because they haven't [00:40:00] filled that with their passion, their purpose, any of those things.
They have done something that worked. It made them money. They did of it. They made more money. But at the same time, they hit a certain point where, is this all it is? Yeah,
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: environment allows us a little bit more, uh, exploration, but um, in, in your generation and my generation at first, it was just like, you go to school, you get a degree and then you go make as much money as you possibly can, whether you're happy about it or not.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: I don't know how much that's changed. I mean, you know, I think social media has created this fantasy land of what success looks like.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Oh man, Jeffrey, that could be a whole. their podcast episode, yes, it's not, it's in using your terms, it would be the highlight reel. [00:41:00] Yeah. Yeah.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: know, when you're, uh, when you lean against a Ferrari that's parked on the street and you take a picture and you post it as if it's your own because you're so well that, you know, you have these kind of toys. Uh, and I think that the audience for both, uh, praise. and rejection.
And if you're going to try to bring in all the praise, then you also have to face whatever rejection and criticism you get to, you know, uh, but I do know people who are very financially successful, who surround themselves with people that reinforce their version of themselves.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: That makes sense.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: and, you know, and they're paid well to do so they realize, or actually many of them do realize, yeah, their primary job is to make that person happy, but what they
sometimes
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: I got
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: late,[00:42:00]
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Just kidding. Yeah. I think you do come to realize that nobody else can make you happy. Mm
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: that's right. That's right. So, you know, it, it, it's interesting. And I think, you know, Just to touch on imposter syndrome, the thing about imposter syndrome is everybody was an imposter, so to speak, until they made it,
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: hmm.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: I don't believe in imposter syndrome. I don't believe in that at all. That's one thing that fortunately has never plagued me because I don't buy into the notion of what it is.
Yeah, you know, uh, I was writing a play, so I was a playwright. I wasn't a produced playwright until a few years ago.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: hmm. Mm hmm.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: and then I became a produced playwright, but I was writing plays. I was trying to get that going, uh, writing a play. And so, you know, Steve Jobs wasn't Steve Jobs until [00:43:00] Apple became successful and people began to know who he was.
But, you know, was he an imposter until Apple became a gigantic success. No, he was in process. And so, you know, it's just you can say you're unsure of your talents that you're insecure about your talents, but that doesn't make you an imposter.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: I
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: and and I think that an imposter to me is someone who tries to con you into thinking they are different than what they actually are.
And that's what a real imposter is a real imposter is a con. But when you talk about imposter syndrome, you're talking about a burden that people place on their own shoulders because they don't feel secure about what it is they do. And so they're going to be afraid of being found out.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Right.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: are going to find out that they're imposters, that people are going to find out they're not really sure about what they're doing.
But, you [00:44:00] know, there's, there's two terms that I, I think are important to understand. One is confidence. The other is courage. Okay, so confidence is a capability.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: hmm.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: Meaning that you, Michelle, have, have done enough interior design. Been awarded enough jobs and continue to be doing so that you're pretty confident, you know that the challenge of redoing somebody's home or whatever you're going to be equal to that challenge.
then that's because you have done it enough times that you can with some confidence anticipate a positive outcome.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Correct.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: Courage is stepping off the edge of that cliff. You don't know what the outcome is going to be and not knowing what the outcome is going to be can make people [00:45:00] very insecure, very scared, but until you've repeated that a number of times, and that courage becomes capability because you've repeated it over and over again, but those first times you do something, it takes courage because you don't know what the outcome is going to be.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: But you have to just do it and jump off ledge in order to build your confidence. So you have to have courage to jump in order to build your confidence. It's, it's a cycle.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: Well, that's right. And it's also probably I probably used a bad example of stepping off that ledge, which is how it's often defined. Because if you know you're on a high floor and you step off that ledge, you might kill yourself. But you know, if you are just going into the unknown, means you are uncertain of the outcome.
Uh, you know, I think that it's, it's more about that because I think another important part of [00:46:00] this, and this I think speaks to your audience too, is the notion of risk. What is really at stake when you present your ideas?
The worst thing that happens, I'm assuming in your business, the worst thing that happens is you don't get awarded the job, they don't like the idea you've come up with, and I'm sure there's jobs that you get, and as you're into it, There may disputes along the way.
Uh, but I think that how do you assess risk if your clients believe that you have good taste that you are well intentioned that you are talented? Uh, so maybe have some differences. And as long as it's about clear communication, polite communication and so on, because ultimately they're spending the money so they can say no.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Yeah, it's their home at the end of the day. But they hired, they hired us for our professionalism and experience and so forth. So yeah, it does. I think the risk itself is generally the [00:47:00] ego. Somebody that they don't like what you did.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: Mm
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: you know, that It doesn't leave a scar, so let's, let me wrap up with this, with this one.
What is the risk that you've taken in your career? The multitude of them, but can you, can you think of one that has really just paid off that you were like scared, scared to do it, did it anyway? And the reward of whatever form paid off in dividends.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: Everything done, you know, whether it was designing clothes or writing a book or doing this play or the film, any of that stuff, uh, the dividend that has paid off. Is it throughout my life? I've been able to do these things that were most important to me that I wanted to do. [00:48:00] money has never been the principal driver to me. Uh, yeah. Although I have a wife and kids, uh, they're not kids anymore. They're young adults, uh, you know, I had responsibilities. So got married and had kids, you know, I realized that things were going to affect more than just me. You know, I had to be mindful, you know, of the responsibilities I have.
Fortunately, my wife and my kids, once they came of age, were very supportive of that, uh, in a very positive way. And, uh, so I think that the All of the chances I have taken have paid off in terms of how it has enriched my life,
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Mm hmm.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: how it's brought me in contact with amazing people, uh, how it's enabled me to [00:49:00] take those other steps into the unknown, like the play, which is probably the biggest thing I've done.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Right.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: And, uh, are there sleepless nights that accompany some of these things? You bet. you know, when there's so much on the line, but, uh, that's been the real payoff. You know, that's been the payoff is the enrichment. Well,
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: uh, it's paid off in dividends in, in this next generation with your children who have seen you living for your passion and your creativity and not necessarily just chasing the dollar. You were probably a better dad at the end of the day, Jeff, because you had that fulfillment.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: well, I, I hope I'm a better person. And part of that is being a better dad, uh, you know, and look, I think there are really good dads. That work really hard at jobs that neither you nor I would [00:50:00] like, but they love and support their kids and their family and their great parents, and they don't have maybe the luxury or whatever to pursue those other things.
And so I never like to lose track of context. And some people are, are not in a position to take chances in the same way. And, uh, and I respect that and I respect the struggle that people have and everybody's got struggles are just different kinds, when your struggle is, I've got to make the mortgage
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: food on the table.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: Yeah. That's a whole different category.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: no, I definitely can appreciate that. And that's a very valid point because not everybody has had that benefit. But I think it's a, if you have that opportunity, it doesn't always turn out to be paying off in dividends from a financial standpoint, but it pays off in dividends in the relationships that you have and so forth.[00:51:00]
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: Oh, absolutely. And interestingly, both of my kids are entrepreneurs. and the, you
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Hold on, let me sit down. I'm shocked.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's kind of cool. Uh, and, you know, by the time I think they were in fourth grade, I couldn't help them with their math homework anymore because it wasn't the way I learned math. I don't know what the hell it
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: since then, too. Yeah.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: But the thing is, what was positive is that they had to be self reliant.
They had to learn how to do, they had to figure it out. And, uh, you know, I, I couldn't, or my wife couldn't help them any further in that because it's taught in a very different way than when we were coming up and, you know, now it's your turn to learn, you know, how to do
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Yeah. And I have a five year old, so it's going to be completely different by the time she's doing math, uh, multiplication tables and stuff. Who knows [00:52:00] the way they're teaching it. It's always evolving. I feel like we have just barely scratched the surface and feel like I've just barely gotten my arms around like the, uh, all of the breadth of experience that you've had.
Um, thank you for taking the time. Oh my gosh. I think the conversation could go on for, For quite a while. Um,
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: you can have me on for the sequel.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: yes, I think we may. Um, because I, now, now I feel like I kind of have my arms around your background and understand it a little bit better. Um, so in the meantime, where can the audience connect with you?
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: They can go to LinkedIn, be Jeffrey Madoff, and I post clips from interviews from amazing people that I've had in my class, and it's about entrepreneurship, it's about creativity, it's about risk, and a lot of the things we've about and [00:53:00] others, uh, would highly recommend because I'm a huckster, uh, my book, which is about a lot of these issues.
It's called creative careers, making a living with your ideas, and the book is based on the class that I taught, and it's, it addresses a lot of these issues, and you also hear from amazing people who do things differently, and that's really
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: don't, I'm going to make sure we have a link to that book and that in the show notes because I'm interested in it myself. I'm sure it, Really takes this conversation and expands on it quite a bit through
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: It does, and through other viewpoints, you know, because there is, there is no one way. And I can't emphasize that enough. All of these books that are on, you know, here's the seven steps to, uh, success and, you know, the highly effective habits of highly effective people. They have nothing to do with you. You can't replicate [00:54:00] their lives.
So you've got to approach things differently and don't think that, you know, there are recipes for success. Cause there's not, there's best practices. about being a professional and communicating clearly and all that and living up to what you, uh, the expectation you set for your clients. But, uh, that's what I call best practices, there's a has go along with that.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Yeah, there's patterns that you can see from successful people, but it's not a franchise that you can buy into and replicate it exactly
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: Yeah. And that's what I call the myth of replication, you know, uh, and, uh, uh, it's mad off productions. com is my website for my film work, and I'm actually redoing our, uh, creative career. website, uh, where it's going to have more stuff, uh, from my guests and full interviews and all of that, which is kind of cool.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: I will definitely make sure that I'm keeping my fingers on that one [00:55:00] and hope to have the opportunity to connect again.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: Well, I think we've already, I'll tell you something that's funny. I was doing a presentation at a conference and I showed a bit of my play and, uh, it was about entrepreneurship and this woman came up to me. And she said, Well, you know, I really like what you're doing with the play. I'm, I'm interested in investing.
How do I start that process?
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Oh my gosh.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: and I said, well, you just did.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Yeah, that's awesome.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: and so you saying that we've already started the relationship so we can stay in touch. We can do those things. And hopefully this is something that will have some value to your clients too. Thank
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate1: Yeah, I appreciate it. Thank you. So, Jeffrey, I will make sure that all of that information is in our show notes so our listeners can you. Go back and reference it that way y'all if you're listening while you're in the car or walking the dog or anything like that. You don't [00:56:00] have to jot it down. It's there at your fingertips when you're ready.
And in the meantime, for those of you who are interested in learning more about the business of interior design. Head on over to the interior designers business launch pad in Facebook. And yes, I know it's Facebook, but it's the best place to have our private groups. And I go live there once a week.
That's where we hold our workshops, and that's where I hope to see you. So, choose to be great today. Thanks again, Jeffrey.
GMT20231204-195908_Recording_separate2: you. [00:57:00]
