Transcript
Michelle Lynne: All right. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. And yes, I know I say this every single time. I'm happy you're here today.
And I'm excited because I have Nicole Heymer here. She is the Owner and Creative Director at Glory & Brand. They specialize in well branded websites for interior design firms, architects, creators and builders for over 10 years. Now, Nicole Heymer. I'm so glad you're here.
I was just talking to Nicole y'all. And the first time I had interacted with or seen her, I don't think I had a chance to say hello. It was a couple years ago, the year before the world shut down at the Design Influencers Conference and just loved her messaging and was super excited to come across her again. So welcome to the podcast.
Nicole Heymer: Thank you so much for having me, Michelle, seriously.
Michelle Lynne: It's my pleasure. Anything we can do to share details with the audience and open up new resources and just have some nuggets of information people can walk away with, I'm super, super excited to do so.
So today we're going to be talking about defining your brand and how to make yourself stand out. Let's just dig in. Nicole's specialty are the websites and how you can go about your messaging. I'm all about having a pretty brand. What it looks like is important, especially as interior designers, but there's much more to it. How would you describe that much more?
Nicole Heymer: Yeah, I mean, I guess first we need to talk about why it matters in order to care. In order for all of us, collectively, to care about this conversation.
So you have branding, right. We've got probably three parts.
We have the visuals, as you mentioned. That's going to set people up to trust you. Esthetics obviously matter so much more in this industry than many other industries.
Then there's the voice, the tone, and the personality of your brand. But it all kind of flows and grows from the messaging. It comes from the narrative that we decide, as business owners. We hopefully, purposely and hopefully with intent, decide that we want to create in people's minds.
I think the best way to understand it or think of it is to think of, as consumers, brands that we like, and brands that we don't like. With each of those, we have a narrative in our head, we have ideas in our head, we have beliefs about those brands, and those beliefs are what impact that loyalty that you might have and that strength of opinion.
So just as a random example, let's take Le Creuset Cookware. Love it. There are certain things that I love about Le Creuset Cookware. There are things that I believe. There's a narrative in my mind about this cookware, and that narrative coincides with things that I think are important. I like color in my kitchen. I don't want tons, but I want moments of color.
And then there's the quality aspect. I believe that Le Creuset has a lifetime warranty. I believe that it's the good stuff. Right? This is why it matters. When I go to look at the price of a Le Creuset Dutch Oven, I'm like, that hurts, but I get it.
It aligns with my beliefs about that brand. So that's what we're talking about. The benefits of good messaging, are everything from less pushback on pricing, because people believe in the narrative.
Michelle Lynne: With everybody I've talked to, everybody gets the pushback on their price. And I think it's because they don't line themselves up and present themselves as such. That's what you're talking about. Start with a narrative.
Nicole Heymer: I have some old, I mean, it's literally seven years old, blog posts on our website about branding. I stand by this example. It's about Tiffany, and a small scale study that was conducted.
They took this pair of gold earrings that are from Walmart, a pair of gold earrings that have no brand, and a pair of gold earrings from Tiffany. They are all same amount of gold and they are all the same material. What's the value of each of these things? The perceived value of Tiffany gold earrings, the same earrings, is so much higher. That's branding. That's messaging.
Michelle Lynne: That little blue box.
So, as interior designers, where do we even start? Where does that narrative begin?
Nicole Heymer: Yeah. So what we're looking for, essentially, is what is it that is special, different, memorable, and unique about your services and about your brand?
I can give you some steps. This is not like a loose, crazy, and abstract thing. Our goal is to make ourselves not generic, right? Pull the generic right out of it, that's going to be part of it. Our goal is to have better qualified referrals and leads because people understand the messaging. And our goal is to have a better experience for everyone because they understand what they're buying.
So I would say step one in this process, is going to be to gather material. Because if we're looking for these messaging points, these pieces of information that we want people to believe about our brand, then I'd say the most organized way to start it is to gather a pile of information and then pick and choose.
I'll give you three ways to gather information to start choosing from. Number one, you can survey your best clients. So you want to start with clients that you feel are the good ones, and the ones you want more of.
Michelle Lynne: And even if you're growing as an interior designer, and you want elevated, better clients, you can still start with your current best clients. They're going to stair step your way up.
Nicole Heymer: You can because what they think is special about you, might be the thing that some higher level clients and larger projects will be attracted to.
Unless their answer is that they love that you're the dirt cheapest and you are available all the time to check in like at 11:30pm on a Sunday. No, no. So, I mean, that being said, you can tweak it so that you being responsive can be a part of your message while obviously setting boundaries.
So survey your best clients. I will even give you some questions that you can ask.
Michelle Lynne: Amazing.
Nicole Heymer: Number one, you can ask them what their main goal was in hiring an interior designer. We do this as part of our brand discovery process. With two clients, just 15 minutes each. This doesn't have to be a big deal. If you're doing it yourself, you can do it by email, you can do it on the phone, or you can have a third party handle it for you.
But I usually say this to the client, you know, hey, listen, interior designers do a lot of things, right? It's the aesthetic stuff. It's the project management, depending on what kind of services you offer. It's the space planning aspect or making sure that the tiles are facing the correct way. We can name all these things.
So for you, Mr. or Mrs. Client, what was the thing that made you pull the trigger? What was the thing that was most important to you? What is most important to you out of all the things that get done? We want to know that information.
Michelle Lynne: Because we think it was one thing making their house pretty, but it could have been another.
Nicole Heymer: There can be surprises. Yeah. And then you want to ask if you spoke with or have worked with other designers. Why did you go with me or us for this? What was the reason? When did you know that you had made the right decision by hiring us?
Michelle Lynne: Oh, that's a good one.
Nicole Heymer: It's good because it speaks to when they had that happy moment. Another question you can ask is when was the moment you felt that everything is gonna be okay? And then just a classic, old standard of like, what's your favorite part of working with us? Or what's your favorite part of the result?
Michelle Lynne: All of that material is gold.
Nicole Heymer: Yeah, it really is. So the next one would be looking at your reviews and your testimonials. Obviously, the more you have of those the better. Go to Houzz, go to Google reviews. Please. Please have people review you on Google as part of your systems for local search, just to throw that out there. That's important. Prioritize that. Side note, prioritize that over Facebook or house definitely.
Another side note with reviews and testimonials, when you get an amazing email from a client, just screenshot it with their name. Don't just let that fall into the vortex of your emails, never to be seen again. Screenshot it and just throw it into a Google Drive folder for testimonials, and maybe you'll use it later.
Michelle Lynne: I think that's so important. Because I, even recently, have not been as diligent about that. And then you have to go looking when you're ready. Oh, I need to do some testimonials. You have to go digging for it. And then you reach out to a client saying that I know you sent me a really nice email last summer, can you find it? Haha! That is not what you need to do, folks, that is not a suggestion!
Nicole Heymer: I don't even want to ask them at that time. I literally just screenshot the email and throw it into the folder so it just doesn't get lost.
And also what's nice about that is if you're ever having a bad day, y'all, you can just go to that folder. I have literally done this when I was having a bad day and whatever and read them over. It really does make you feel better to see them all at once.
Michelle Lynne: Oh, that's fabulous. That's a great idea. On days where I feel like I suck, I'm gonna go back to my testimonial file.
Nicole Heymer: It's like a stuffed animal for entrepreneurs. Yes, yes. Okay. So dig through those, because you're going to start to see patterns. So if you're looking at a bunch of reviews, a bunch of testimonials, a bunch of screenshots of emails from clients, you're going to start to see patterns where people are noticing specific things and really appreciating certain things about what you do.
And then finally, perhaps most importantly, you want to ask yourself some questions. I can give you some. There are a million questions you can ask yourself. Again, when we do like a brand discovery, we would ask you 1000 questions. But let me give you some good ones that you can ask yourself to reveal like what what you want. Because messaging is about the target client, but it is very much about you.
Michelle Lynne: I absolutely agree. Because if we all try to be all things to all people, if we're trying to do the things that we don't like, and we're not good at, we fall flat on our face, but we still think we should be doing it. So I can't wait to hear these questions.
Nicole Heymer: Yeah, I'm just gonna skip ahead for one second and just say, that's a great point to bring up. To me, there are three qualities that you need to have in your actual messaging that you settle on, different than your competitors, desirable to your target client, and as you just pointed out, doable to you. Because you're gonna settle into this. So it needs to be things that you want to do.
Michelle Lynne: Yeah. And I learned that one the hard way. I was trying to be all things to all people early in my career. And it burns us out. That's the tail wagging the dog. It's like you can come into my business and work the way I work, or you can go somewhere else.
Nicole Heymer: Yeah, yeah, this is what we sell. Would you like to buy this thing that we sell? Great. You can get it in these flavors.
Michelle Lynne: Yes. If not, please drive through.
Nicole Heymer: Exactly! Go next door. There's somebody else who sells a different thing.
Okay. So things you can ask yourself. One of my favorites. What do you want to do more of? What do you want to sell more of if you have a bunch of different services? Or if you have three services. Or if you really are like, you know what, we just want to do this one thing. What do you want to sell more of? Because you have the power to say to the world at large through all of your marketing, and all of your branding, we specialize in this. That's it. Who gets to decide that? You do. It's really simple and straightforward.
Michelle Lynne: And Nicole, I can just imagine a lot of our audience having a lightbulb moment with that, because you just gave them permission. It's your business, babe. It's your business and put your blinders on and do what you need to do.
Nicole Heymer: I've been there. Oh my gosh, please know that I'm coming from a place of like, I also have a business and we start to just go by habit and the things that we put in place a long time ago and all of that. But yes, give yourself permission to just say I want to do more of this, I want to do less of that, or none of that.
Michelle Lynne: And also give yourself the grace to know that you might not be available tomorrow to say we only do full service interior design. Because you have to stair step your way into that in order to keep the lights on sometimes.
Nicole Heymer: So another question you can ask is, it's kind of a different twist on that, which is who do you want to work with more? So this is the target client question. Sometimes I talk to designers, and they're like, well, we have this bucket of target clients, we have that bucket of target clients, we have empty nesters versus the young families. It can be quite different.
Who do you want to work with more? And with both of these questions, keeping in mind, it's not that you say no, necessarily. You can. You can make that decision. When you're on the sales call, you can always make the decision to to work with a client.
But what you put out into the world, what you put on your website, what you put on social media, what you tell stories about, all of that should be ideally focused on the services you want to sell more of and the target client you want to work with more.
Michelle Lynne: I think that's so important. In my paid program, the Interior Design Business Bakery, we start out with a lot of that. It's like, who are you? Who's your ideal client? And like you said, it doesn't mean that you won't work with your ideal client profile.
If a bachelor calls me up and has a bucket of money to spend, even though our ideal client usually is a family, I'm not going to say no. But more often than not, the ideal client, because of the messaging, is who's calling. The bachelor with a bucket of money may or may not call or he might call somebody else. Previously, I was messaging to everybody. And it was just like throwing spaghetti on the wall.
Nicole Heymer: If you're talking to everybody, you're talking to nobody. It's ineffective and difficult. It's so difficult to write copy for a website, or for anywhere that is meant to hit every possible target is nearly impossible. And obviously, you're gonna end up with the most generic stuff.
Michelle Lynne: Yes. Do you remember the movie Pretty Woman? Julia Roberts gets in the car the first time she meets Richard Gere, and he says, what is your name? And she says, what do you want it to be? Y'all, we are not prostitutes. So pick your lane, choose your name and roll with it. Like who's your client?
Nicole Heymer: Just to throw out a couple more questions just to mull it over. This is a really straightforward, but tricky to answer. What do you want to be known for? And what I mean by that is, when someone recommends you to a friend, what do you want them to say in the next breath?
When they're like, oh, you should call xyz designs? What do you want them to say in the next breath? Because they're going to say something. They are saying something. This process is about taking control of what they're saying and making it clear what they should say.
Michelle Lynne: So with all this messaging, where are you putting it? Like, I've got it all figured out my head, now what?
Nicole Heymer: So here we go. You found your things. This could have to do with everything from the target client you serve, to every project starts with art, or we're known for our innovative storage solutions, or maybe it's that we love working with young families who just bought their forever home.
Whatever it is, you're going to take that stuff and you're going to do two things. You're going to sprinkle it freaking everywhere. And let's talk about what everywhere means. And then you're going to then make it more true. So let's take that in order, I suppose.
Michelle Lynne: Yeah. So everywhere, I'm assuming is going to be like your website and social media. Business cards.
Nicole Heymer: Yes. So messaging on business cards, may be tricky.
Michelle Lynne: Even on the back, like we make homes happier and more efficient. That's what I've got in the back of some of my business cards.
Nicole Heymer: So that's a great point. Your tagline is going to possibly have some messaging in it. When we write taglines, we tend to go either sort of like feeling, brand level, something that's catchy and memorable and lovely and the right vibe. Or we start with messaging and like really say something that is specific to what we've chosen for them. So you can go either way with a tagline.
Michelle Lynne: I'll hire you next year. We're gonna elevate this sucker.
Nicole Heymer: Excellent. All right, so as far as where this stuff goes, let's talk about that.
First. It's going to be copywriting. Try writing copy without messaging and see how hard it is. If you don't know what you're trying to say, you're going to struggle. If you have messaging, your only job at that point is just to figure out what kind of tone you want to say it in. This is how you write copy for a website by having messaging first.
So that's one thing. Copywriting. And that's the first thing, but it's going to be everywhere else, it's going to be storytelling. So one piece of advice I like to recommend is to take each piece of messaging that you have and think of at least one story that corresponds with it. Because the reality of messaging and marketing in general is that you can say that you are a thing, but if you have a story, it is going to back it up and support. It is going to be number one.
Because now, it's more memorable. Now, they believe it's true. It's like, this is my muscle journey. Here's a story to support it. If you think this way, if you look at your messaging, and you think of corresponding stories, you're using a method, so it's not so random.
Michelle Lynne: That's such a great tip, because so many times I hear that people don't know what to put on Instagram. Or people just don't even know what to put in an email series or anything. And it comes down to just tell your stories.
Nicole Heymer: Oh, yeah, tell your stories. But just knowing that you're choosing a story specifically, because it really ties in with the narrative. Yeah, yeah. Blog posts are great for demonstrating expertise. You know, if you have a piece of messaging about something, then demonstrate the expertise around that. And not only that, you can optimize your search with it. So it's even better, because you can go to town on a search term that's related to your messaging, and really demonstrate expertise and be found.
Photo selection. If you are talking about how you want to do, aspirationally, you want to do more whole home projects, pay attention to the arrangement of a portfolio. You don't want to break your portfolio down by room, you want to break it down by project because you're telling the story of this being a whole project over here. This is not like hire us for a bedroom, here's a bunch of bedrooms. You want to think about photo selection and how you present your photos in relation to your messaging.
And then my favorite is how it relates to the whole making it real thing. So if you are saying like we are known for x, we are the go to for this thing, or this approach or this client or whatever it is, you are going to go back into your processes and all of your checklists and all of your project management, and figure out ways to make it even more true because there is no real brand branding without reality to support it.
It's all colors and smoke and mirrors. It's words and you know, like whatever you get, you get the testimonials, you get the experiences, and you get the referrals when you take that messaging and make it bigger and better.
Okay, so I'm going to sum up that thought and just say that your branding and your messaging becomes real when you circle back into your systems and you reinforce it and you make your checklists and all of your processes, not to just reflect your messaging, but make it double down. You're going to talk about, like targeting young families, think of five ways that you can make your process go beyond whatever the standard processes that you've been working with and inject new stuff into it.
Michelle Lynne: Okay, so that brings up my point of that people can go out AND they can buy a roomful of beautiful furniture. Go to Rooms To Go, go to West Elm and just put stuff together.
People today are looking for an experience. So if you are a family friendly brand, what can some of the additional experiential touch points be? Could it be bringing the kids the color nail polish that you're painting the room? Or bringing them coloring books or whatever works for what age they are. So if you're really saying that you are here to serve families, how can you, just like you said, double down on it?
Nicole Heymer: Go hog wild. Get creative. Brainstorm with your team. I mean, an example I use, specifically for that one in our messaging course, is that we bring childcare to the meetings.
Michelle Lynne: I was the childcare at a scope of work meeting the other day!
Nicole Heymer: And that might be too much, but it sort of gets you percolating on these types of things. I love your nail polish idea. I think that's so awesome. And I can imagine my seven year old would be delighted by that.
Michelle Lynne: Mom might not be.
Nicole Heymer: That kid-friendly nail polish that's half off.
Michelle Lynne: It's Elmers Glue that's purple.
Nicole Heymer: But yeah, it could be anything from your method of communication, how short you keep the meetings. Let them know that your meetings are extremely efficient because we work with families. So we've honed our process down to the finest little point. Little stuff like that.
Michelle Lynne: Now is that bragging? Like, if you repeatedly tell the client, this is what you do, and why it benefits them? Some individuals that I've spoken with, feel awkward and shy telling clients that, but from a business standpoint, you're just complimenting what you said on your website, and on our email, and all of these things.
Nicole Heymer: Yeah, I have two different responses to that. One is just like get over it. Because yeah, market yourself!
Michelle Lynne: Yeah, put on your big girl panties.
Nicole Heymer: Yeah, put them on. But also, it is not about just saying it over and over again. That's the beauty of thinking in these terms. Like it's not just like we do this, we do this, we do that. It is weaving it in and demonstrating it at every turn. So you're not always saying like we're family friendly.
To repeat that over and over again, would be kind of lame, you know? So it's more about like, yes, you say it sometimes and maybe find a more interesting way to say it, perhaps you know, when it comes to your main marketing material, but then you're going to demonstrate it.
It's the stories. It's the telling the story about the target client and the thing that happened with them and the problems that you solved. It's like we said, like how you set up your meetings. And you don't have to say we do this because we're family friendly. You can say we do this, because we know that you have limited time.
Michelle Lynne: And they're going to infer and tie everything together. I love that. And when you first said and then to do it extra, I was like, what does she mean by do it extra? But that makes perfect sense.
Nicole Heymer: I think it's the most fun part because you can really get creative in how you do that.
Michelle Lynne: And that's what sets you apart. And that goes back to what you said earlier in our conversation about not being generic. Find ways to stand out and be your best self and serve your client to the best of your ability where you are.
And also, everything that you're saying, some people might say, well, that's impossible because I'm not there yet. Well, again, give yourself grace to get there. And if you are already there, then you can automatically continue sprinkling in some of these special messaging nuances.
Nicole Heymer: Yeah. I mean, your first step is to figure out what your messaging is.
Michelle Lynne: Now, I will ask you at the end, but that is something that you and your company basically specialize in.
Nicole Heymer: Yeah. We specialize in branding and website design and development. So figuring out the narrative and then building an online presence that is specific to that.
Michelle Lynne: It's overwhelming for me to think that I have to do all of this myself, but you extract a lot of this information from your clients.
Nicole Heymer: Yeah, you can go either way. We have courses and that sort of thing. And there's a chapter in a book that I contributed to with for LuAnn Nigara, A Well Designed Business: The Power Talk Friday Experts Part One. And so there's a chapter on messaging there. So that's a resource, you can go grab, or you can book a brand discovery with us and that's a one-on-one process where we take you through it.
Michelle Lynne: I've done that with my Designed For The Creative Mind side, versus ML Interiors Group. And it was just amazing how much depth the people who did my copy and my branding. It's just amazing what you can extract from questions I didn't even know.
Nicole Heymer: Who else has time to step back in that way and think about these things? I mean, it's really just taking the time to do it.
Michelle Lynne: But it's also because you're the expert. People hire us to come in and design their homes. We hire people like you to design our branding and our messaging. And what we're doing is just like with our clients, we're extracting the best of them, and turning around and presenting it in, you know, furniture, art, accessories, feeling the homeliness. You do the same thing, but you just have a different medium in which you translate it into.
Nicole Heymer: Yeah. I mean, just like you guys, it's been a bunch of years that we've been doing this. We've learned what is most efficient and what works to figure these things out.
Michelle Lynne: Love, love, love it. Well, at the end, y'all, I will be asking Nicole where we can get in touch with her and any more information on the services she provides.
But in the essence of time, we are going to roll right into our Q&A Rapid Fire. Just for a little bit of fun and to get to know Nicole a little bit better. So let's start. When was the last time you laughed until you almost peed yourself?
Nicole Heymer: Oh my goodness. Um, I just went to Cape like a month ago or something, and I was out for drinks with Claire Jefford. She has an interior design group. I can't say what we were talking about but, we were just making a lot of like ridiculous dirty jokes. I like that question. Like, that's what comes to mind. That painful, cheeks hurting like laughter.
Michelle Lynne: Isn't that the best, though? We need more of that every day. Okay, chocolate chip or oatmeal cookie?
Nicole Heymer: Chocolate chip
Michelle Lynne: Innie or outie belly button?
Nicole Heymer: Innie
Michelle Lynne: Who's your favorite superhero?
Nicole Heymer: Oh, um, gosh. I mean, it's got to be Wonder Woman because I just have such fond memories of Linda Carter.
Michelle Lynne: Right? She was a badass.
Nicole Heymer: It was that and Charlie's Angels when I was a kid, like, the models.
Michelle Lynne:
I know. Running in high heels. Dog or cat?
Nicole Heymer: I have three kids and we have two mice named Jimmy and Jerry. But we're taking it easy on the pets because we're all sort of overwhelmed by our three children.
Michelle Lynne: Girl. I'm overwhelmed with one three-year-old. Nobody tells you how hard some of these phases are. That's a whole other podcast...with cocktails! Introvert or extrovert?
Nicole Heymer: Um, I so I want to say extrovert, but I also need so much alone time that I'm honestly not sure.
Michelle Lynne: Is that called an ambivert?
Nicole Heymer: Oh, is that a word?
Michelle Lynne: I think there's a word. I think it's called ambivert. Now don't quote me on that, but we can go Google it later.
Nicole Heymer: I mean, if it doesn't exist, you should coin that because that's good. Yeah, that's good stuff.
Michelle Lynne: Okay, you guys are witnessing this. It's my word.
Nicole Heymer: The birth of a new word.
Michelle Lynne: What is your favorite book?
Nicole Heymer: 1984 George Orwell. I've always loved that.
Michelle Lynne: There we go, kind of creepy.
Nicole Heymer: Yeah, bit of a downer. But ever since I was a kid, I just love that book.
Michelle Lynne: What genre of music do you listen to?
Nicole Heymer: Ah, that's so hard. Um, lots of genres of music. I seems to change over time. I don't speak French, but I like like French hip hop. I like surf rock type stuff. I like anything that has a funk element. So it could be something that's more jazzy but has a funk element. There's something about the language with hip hop that, like it's so smooth and lovely. I went to a lot of music festivals and that sort of thing.
Michelle Lynne: Do they have French hip hop on Spotify?
Nicole Heymer: Yes, yes.
Michelle Lynne: Okay, I'm gonna keep my headphones on, and I'm gonna jam out to French hip hop when we're done here. Okay, last question. If you could do anything for a career, other than what you're doing right now, what would you choose?
Nicole Heymer: I have heard you ask other people that. So I have a BFA in illustration. And that's all well and good, but when I started working with websites, the interactive element combined with the visual felt like this is the thing. When I was a kid, I wanted to be like a lawyer or whatever, but like, I don't know that I have an answer.
Michelle Lynne: No, I think that's a perfect answer. Because I feel the same way, Nicole, it's like, I would not want to be doing anything other than what I'm doing right now. This is where God has me for reason. So no, I think that's fantastic.
And I just love that for you and I love that for me. It's just nice to feel that you're in your lane. I've been in other businesses where I was just like, I'm doing it for the money. I don't love it and there's just no fulfillment.
Nicole Heymer: In my early 20s, I accidentally became an HR manager. Like, I'm not sure how it happened. The whole time I was like, I mean, I know this is a real job, but ugh.
Michelle Lynne: It sucks the life out of you. Okay, so how can our audience find you so that they can talk to you directly about their needs?
Nicole Heymer: They can go to gloryandbrand.com and you can find us on Instagram at Glory and Brand. But there's a bunch of stuff, there's free stuff, there's services, there's all the things on gloryandbrand.com
Michelle Lynne: Perfect. And we will make sure that all of that information is in our show notes. I could sit here for another hour. We'd have so much fun. We need cocktails. Gin or vodka?
Nicole Heymer: Either one is fine, but probably vodka just because gin seems to do something crazy. I was a bartender in college and I remember hearing that gin, I don't know if this is actually true, but I remember hearing that gin keeps you drunker longer because of something about the way it's made. So I've always been a little bit weary of gin.
Michelle Lynne: So funny. Thank you for being here. I really do appreciate it.
And for those of you who can benefit from even more resources surrounding the business of running your interior design business, join my growing community over on Facebook. Womp womp, I know it's Facebook, but it's a private group. It's called the Interior Designers Business Launchpad.
Oh, and also, wherever you're listening to this podcast, please don't forget to leave a review. We appreciate it. We'll see you next time.
