Michelle Lynne 0:02
Welcome to design for the creative mind, a podcast for interior designers and creative entrepreneurs to run their business with purpose, efficiency and passion. Because, well, every design is different, the process should remain the same. Prepare yourself for some good conversations with amazing guests, a dash of Jesus and a touch of the woowoo and probably a swear word or two. If you're ready to stop trading your time for money, and enjoy your interior design business. You are in the right place. I'm your host, Michelle Lynn.
Michelle Lynne 0:43
Hello, hello. Hello. Welcome back to design for the creative mind. This is a business podcast for creatives, whether you're an interior designer or an artist, or anybody who has the left brain and the right brain in conflict on occasion. Today, I am so excited to have Jamie Lieberman here. She is the owner and founder of hashtag legal she has been a practicing lawyer for 16 or so years, serves creatives serves all sorts of people around the country on a variety of different platforms, including what we're going to talk about right away because I just found out about it. And I'm super excited. She started a new business, a new podcast. It's called the unknown business podcast. So since you're here on this podcast, you can go check out her podcast, and hello. Welcome, Jamie. I'm super excited.
Jamie 1:30
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Oh,
Michelle Lynne 1:33
it's so much fun. So we're going to talk about all things. Well, not all things law. But we're going to talk about when do you involve an attorney, we're going to talk about some negotiation, but because we were just talking about it before I hit record on this podcast, you were telling me about your new business podcast called The unbusiness podcast, and how you are talking about constantly tell the audience what you were just telling me in regards to how you're doing seasons and what your topic is right now. I think they will be really interested in hearing that.
Jamie 2:03
Thank you. I'm very excited about it. As you know, as a fellow podcast host podcasts are a labor of love. So we get a lot of work into it. And yes, we just launched, there are now today is the fourth episode is live by the time this goes live, there will probably be more but what we decided to do, you know, as a lawyer who helps business owners, particularly creators, and creatives, we tend to deal on a lot of heavy stuff. Some of it is like really positive and amazing because we're growing and building but legal just sort of terrifies everybody. And so I wanted to create a podcast that provided information to these business owners in a much more manageable way that didn't feel so formal. And so I decided to do it in seasons, because oftentimes, a lot of the topics I talked about, they're dense. And so we kicked off with Season One all about conflict management and conflict resolution for business owners, because that is really the most vulnerable, I think business owners come to me is when they're in times of conflict, whether it's with a client or a vendor, or an employee, or a contractor or a partner. I mean, we could talk about conflict all day. And so we dove deep into like tools and stories and ways that you can get more comfortable with managing conflict, because it's a reality of any business.
Michelle Lynne 3:21
Absolutely. And it's not something that most people are comfortable with. And especially in the interior design industry, because a lot of us are women. And hell were nurtured from the get go to be nice. Yep. So that is I'm so excited. I'm gonna. So stick around, don't hang up on this podcast and hop over to hers right now we're gonna we're gonna dive deep into a couple of other things, and then go check it out. And I'm going to do the same thing. Now. You have another pot, you were doing a podcast before I was. So did you just sunset that?
Jamie 3:56
We did. So I had a partner, she was awesome, a co host. And we just sort of got to a place with the podcast where we're like, Alright, I think we've said what we wanted to say. I mean, we had hundreds of episodes. And it just sort of took a direction where we decided it was time to sort of shut that one down. So we did and thankfully, there was no conflict. We're still very, very good friends. But I decided that I wanted to do something on my own specific to the topics that were you know, just most kind of top of my mind and the things that really people come to me and asked me about all the time and, you know, we can't help everybody and sometimes people just need a resource from an expert that at least will give them some basic information.
Speaker 1 4:38
Well, and I love the fact that you're spreading it out and going deep into each topic with the season. That's Yeah, huge.
Jamie 4:45
It's hard to you know, we're gonna talk obviously about a lot of things legal issues and what we're gonna really baseline headed. I'm gonna give really basic information and sometimes I feel like you know, I could sit and talk for three hours but nobody wants to listen to a lawyer talk for three hours. I get that I. So you know, I thought it would be a good way to make some of these really dense topics just a lot more manageable.
Speaker 1 5:06
That is awesome. So that kind of leads me into my first question in regards to, when do you need to involve an attorney? Like, can I just go listen to the podcast and get some of this information? How do I know? Or how do the listeners know, it's time to actually pick up the
Jamie 5:22
phone and call somebody, it's time now, for anybody listening. So there's a couple of different reasons that you're gonna call a lawyer, we're gonna call a lawyer and happy times, because we're creating something, something new or something we've already created, but we haven't quite protected it yet. And so those are the best times to call, those are the proactive times to call, which is why I say the time is now to call. Because you probably have something in your business that you don't even realize you haven't protected. Or, you know, you just you don't know what you don't know. So having a relationship for a lawyer from the day you start your business is a great proactive thing to do. Now, many of you are listening, and many of you have businesses and you're like, Oh, no. So that is not a lender allowance for you to panic or any reason for you to like, freak out and go immediately, like, you know, Googling lawyers. It's something dude,
Unknown Speaker 6:14
you could Google hashtag lawyer.
Jamie 6:17
Hashtag legal? Yes, press. Yes. So. But yeah, so I don't want you to freak out. But it's something that you should have in the back of your head. It is one of the many tools in your arsenal as a business owner that you should have. It's your lawyer, your accountant, you know, all the people who are the support of your business. Yes. And I look at all of those professionals as risk assessors. Because at the end of the day, when we're being proactive, it's really just helping you manage and minimize your risk. And that will depend on how you feel about risk. Some people are like, we're parachuting without a parachute, right? Like we're jumping out of that plane, we don't care. And when we hit the ground, we'll figure it out. Other people, they're like, pausing at the stoplight, and they're not crossing until they have a walk sign. There is everybody in between, and it is neither good nor bad. You just have to know who you are and what your risk profile is. And then we can create a strategy for you. So having that strategy upfront, it's going to help you sleep at night. Because then we shift to the other side of things. And we have the people who are coming to me in the reactive. That's the conflict. That's the fear. That's the Oh, no, something is going wrong. And I'd say, you know, the majority of the people that come to me at first, they're coming to me, because it's reactive, they're scared, something's gone wrong. They're afraid they're gonna lose things. And so I would say, it's always better to make that call. I know a lot of people have fears around how much it's going to cost or the person is not going to be a fit for them. But until you make that call until you have that consultation, you just don't know. And so telling us ourselves a story about this is going to bankrupt me. If I ignore it. It'll go away. I've heard it all.
Unknown Speaker 7:53
Wait, that doesn't work?
Jamie 7:56
Sadly, it does not if it did, I'd be in great shape. Yeah, so I think that make the call because you have nothing that honestly.
Speaker 1 8:08
Yeah, well, and you don't like you said, you don't know what you don't know. It's just like when a client calls an interior designer, you know, so many people think that they can do it themselves. And they try it and then they it doesn't work. And then they try it again. And they finally get to the point where they bang their head against the wall so many times they reach out. And it's oftentimes such a pleasant surprise to realize just how easy the process is. And I'm sure that's the same thing with your clients. Yep. Yeah. It's kind of like going to the gym. I think it's always worse when you think about it, like right before your workout.
Jamie 8:39
You can't think about it. But I think the other thing is, it's easy when you have the right connection. You know, I I'm gonna use interior design. I'm actually in the process personally, of renovating a home. And I knew immediately there was not a chance we were doing this ourselves. And so we interviewed quite a few interior designers. And some of them it didn't feel easy, not because there's anything wrong. They weren't a fit for us. But the one that was right, it was simple, right. And so it's the same with lawyers, like when you have that right call, it's just a fit, it flows, you got to go with your gut, because you're interviewing that lawyer, they're interviewing you, too. You got to make sure it's a fit, like any professional service. And so it should feel easy. It should feel like you're working together. They're a partner, they understand your business. You click personally and look, I get it like I am not for everybody. There are definitely some clients out there that I won't fit with. And that's okay. It's good for me to know that. It's good for them to know that. So just like knowing, talking to a few people, making sure you feel comfortable with them, and then the one who feels easy go there.
Speaker 1 9:44
Well, I was gonna liken it to dating until you said that feels easy.
Jamie 9:51
It's like dating, right? Exactly. We're friends dating, right? Like, you get to a certain phase of your life where you're like, how do I make new friends and You know,
Speaker 1 10:00
oh my gosh, other podcasts I totally agree but, but it's true, you have to figure out who you gel with in any instance and go from there.
Michelle Lynne 10:11
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Speaker 1 10:50
So also, you had said, you need somebody now? Well, it's also if you are going into business, or if you've been in business for a bit your contract, that is such a huge, I mean, that's I mean, first of all, have a contract, if you don't have a contract, you need a contract. But it's also different by our industry. Like our industry has some crazy ass nuances. And finding an attorney who understand that, for me, when I was first starting up was a huge challenge. I mean, that was back in 1902, you might have been around. But just knowing what I know now is so true, because I went through the heartache of adding things to the contract because they happened. Yep. And then having a lawyer sign off on it every single time was just ridiculous. You've worked with designers, and understand some of those nuances. So that is such a huge, you know, y'all Jamie's not paying me as a commercial for this. But, you know, I'm just as you guys know, if you've been with me at all, I love to share as much as I possibly can and promote people who support our industry. And if you're not sure, pick up the phone, get your contract looked at, though, Jamie. Contracts vary by state. How do you and your business manage that? If I'm calling you from Texas, and you are not here?
Jamie 12:23
Yeah. So we manage it on a case by case basis, we talk to the person we see what their needs are, there are definitely instances where we say this is not a fit for us. And we'll refer out we have a network of lawyers that we work with if local issues come up. But it's always just best to have that conversation and say, Can you do this can you help. So it's really just on a case by case basis to make sure that we're able to help because I'm never going to take, you know, an engagement from someone that I can't. So and we work with people all over the country. And we are able to do so in a lot of ways. So it's just really making sure that we're the right fit for that. But you are so so right, just in general about contracts, they are not one size fits all, every single interior designer does business differently. That's just I mean, and I say this all the time, interior designers have probably some of the most complex contracts, they just do. It is
Speaker 1 13:16
because it's a complex business Majan it is
Jamie 13:21
so complicated. interior designers, graphic designers, I know other creatives will listen, they have very complicated as well. And that is because you are essentially, particularly with interior designers, you are probably as creatives the most rough, right and left brained of the businesses, because you cannot be a successful interior designer without being incredibly creative. And being incredibly business savvy, you have to marry the two. And I actually find that pretty amazing how many incredibly talented designers are out there who are so so business savvy. And so those between the two, those two things, like there's just a lot that's involved in those contracts. And so there's just no one size fits all you can't do it. Loads of people have tried, but it doesn't work. And so And like you said, you know, we can anticipate a lot like I work with so many interior designers, I know some of the most common pitfalls, stuff will come up that we did not anticipate and not happily, and we amend things and work through things. Your contract, I always joke should be like kind of a living, breathing document like it should. It should grow with your business, it should absolutely change. You should be evaluating it every six months to a year just to make sure just look at it. You know, we go we sort of get a contract and we set it and forget it and we don't look back at it. And then when something happens, we go back and look at our contract. We're like why is that in there? Or why did I write that? We're Oh man, I made that typo because I wasn't paying attention and now what? So I just think it's something that we don't want to necessarily deal with. And in an ideal world. If we have a great relationship, we're never going to look at that contract again once it's signed, but that's Just not reality, particularly in the interior design space. It's
Speaker 1 15:03
amazing. I remember getting into this business years ago and thinking, Oh, I'm just gonna make spaces beautiful. Yeah, and make money off of it. And then Holy crap, like you said, I mean, the contract is complicated. It's because the business is complicated. So for all of y'all listening and wondering, it's true, this is not an easy business to be in. But having that contract also really protects both you as well as the client. So it's really narrative,
Jamie 15:34
a really good contract is really is the lifecycle of a design project, from design, to procurement, to construction management, to installation, and rinse and repeat like it is, it should detail every single phase that you're doing, and how you charge for it. And the phases are often charged for differently. You know, I have designers who are doing flat fees for design, but then we're doing a percentage for construction management, and then we're doing a markup for procurement. And then we're doing another flat fee for installation and styling. I have designers who are hourly, for everything like it is across the board, and I read them all, I see them all. So that's another benefit I have, in my experiences. I know how everybody's pricing. clients come to me and they're like, What are you seeing, and I start to see, I absolutely start to see trends, because clients are coming back to me, like a lot of my innovative clients and are saying, I'm going to do this a little bit differently, I want to sort of try to figure out, I want to tweak this, I want to change this. And so your contract is truly the lifecycle of your project, it is a roadmap. And so the really, really good ones, you're gonna be able to go back and you're gonna say, Okay, now I'm on phase three, these are all the things that I need to do, I'm going to check all those in my scope, I'm gonna look at how I'm going to price it out, and your clients gonna be like, This is amazing, everything lines up, and we're really, really happy. And that's the ideal world. First
Speaker 1 16:57
of all, that's amazing. I've taken some notes on that I love the idea of the lifecycle of your project. So that's, this is one of the reasons why I love doing this podcast, and just interacting with so many people, because there's always just that little nugget that you take away. But I was gonna ask, Did you did you take that knowledge that you have about pricing and use it to negotiate your designer?
Jamie 17:21
I did not do that to her. I want her to be paid fairly.
Speaker 1 17:26
And that's really, you are the dream client? Yes,
Jamie 17:30
she's providing a real I mean, listen, I'm a professional services, professional services professional. I'm also a client service person. And so I want to be parrot paid fairly. So anybody I hire, whether it's in my business, or personally, I'm gonna pay them fairly, that's just the way it should be. Yeah,
Speaker 1 17:48
that is such, okay, so I'm getting off track, because I was actually going to segue into negotiation and talk to you about that. But I want to point out what you just said, because one of the things that I really try to teach as often as possible is that as designers, we are professionals, our clients are most often going to be professionals in their industry as well. Because if they can afford us, they're going to be professionals. Okay, just not everybody can afford design. And that's okay. So to, to understand who I'm dealing with, or who you're dealing with, as an interior designer, you have to show up as a professional, because that's who the professional is hiring is another professional. Yep. So just remember that we are ideal clients, or is somebody like you, that will allow us to have that level of professionalism, creativity, financial rewards, and so forth. So, okay, back to negotiation. That was my, my own little commercial on the side. So negotiation is something that you are very adept at. Why is that a skill that designers or entrepreneurs should actually acknowledge and hone in on, because
Jamie 19:00
everything we do is a negotiation. I mean, really, whether it's, you know, dealing with a new vendor, or if it's dealing with and, and, and I want to back up from that and say, like, we have to stop looking at negotiation as this like, really horrible thing that we're doing. It is literally, to me a collaborative process where two people come together and get a really awesome end result. I get, like, armwrestling, right. I'm not at a used car dealership where I'm like, I will pay 5000. And he said, the cost is 10,000. And I say 6000. And he says 9000. That's not negotiation, okay, that is bargaining is at the end of negotiation. Negotiation is collaborative. It's listening. It's me sitting down with a client or me sitting down with a vendor or me sitting down and saying, okay, like, this is what I need. What do you need? And how are we going to come together and like, it's like a little Venn diagram in my mind, where's the middle, right? Where are we going to find and that's not necessarily that 5000 $10,000 example. There are so many currencies that we're gonna go shooting. I mean, we're talking about not just like price, but we're talking about time, we're talking about portfolio use, we're talking about interviews, we're talking about social media, we're talking about, you know, referrals, we're talking about, like, there's so much that goes into understanding what's important to a client, what's important to a vendor, what's important to an employee or a contractor, whoever you're negotiating with, you know, I even think about it, I actually did a podcast episode with a client and a friend of mine, she has a podcast episode about parenting, and I did it about kids negotiation, and kids, and I am no child psychologist or expert, but we talked about how we take my negotiation framework, actually put it towards working with my kids, because there's this recognition that like my kids, they have needs to I have two children, they have needs too. So they should be able to express those needs, they may not get what they want. They should be able, and I should try to find a way to get them there, where I get what I need to which is keeping them safe and happy. And all those things. And obviously, they want to watch TV for 65 hours a day. But there's a middle ground, right. So I think that that when we look at negotiation, we really should be looking at it as a, you know, a collaboration and on the listening, because it just makes it better. Once we get to the bargaining, if we sort of know what all the issues are and where we are, it's easy.
Speaker 1 21:16
So you can skip the mind reading and actually have that conversation.
Michelle Lynne 21:24
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Speaker 1 22:09
So you said you have a framework for negotiation? Yes. How did you come up with that? And what does it kind of look like?
Jamie 22:16
Oh my gosh. So I actually I'll give you a link. We have like a free download that kind of runs through all of it that I can give in your show notes. It's years and years and years and years of experience. And also I was a professor at Seton Hall Law School, and I taught lawyering and negotiation. So through sort of my work and through just all of the research and reading and my training that I just sort of came up with this like really sort of process that I go through in every negotiation and some of activity includes research and listening and understanding, you know, getting information and then really honing in on like, what are the actual issues that we're negotiating? Because at the end of the day, when we start with, I don't even want to call it a conflict. But let's say a potential client or, you know, you sit down with a client, and they come to you and they're like, Okay, I want my bathroom redone. Great. Let's start talking about that. And you start to pull things away, you start realizing, well, we're really good on budget here. But timelines kind of an issue. So let's talk about timeline, and what needs to get done in my workload, and etc. And so once we start pulling away some of those excess that are actually not in dispute at all or up for conversation becomes easier to hone in on at that that end result. So it's just a lot of research. It's a lot of listening. It's a lot of asking questions. And it's a lot of strategy.
Speaker 1 23:35
Well, I love that because I think in my experience, as I'm talking to designers all the time, a lot of times, they're not showing up and asking questions, because they think they should know something, oh, God, but it's such an interesting position that we put ourselves in, because we're assuming things that may or may not be true, when just asking questions, is not a sign of weakness. It is research. It's actually
Jamie 24:03
incredibly flattering to the client. They love to be asked questions, who doesn't want to talk about what they want? So true, let's be real. People like to talk about themselves. And that's a good thing. Use that. And just listen, I mean, your client is going to feel so safe by you just asking questions about what they want and need. That's all that is. It's not You're not trying to trick them, or you're just getting information. So you have an understanding. I mean, we that's that's really what it comes down to. It's just really good conversation. I have a client who's a tech based client, because we do work with tech companies, and they use crazy tech jargon. And it happens that way back a million years ago, I was an engineer and I happen to understand technology, but there are some times that there people will come at me with a phrase and I'm like, I don't know what they're talking about. And I will literally say to them, Hey, you got it. What can you just tell me what you're talking about? Because you're using a phrase that I think I know what it means but I and I always Hmm, I think I know what you're saying. But I don't want to make assumptions. So explain it to me like, I'm a brand new person. And I don't care if it's elementary or basic, I also sometimes just need to confirm my understanding is correct, and sometimes part of negotiation, and part of that is repeating back to people saying, okay, if I'm hearing you, this is what I'm hearing, I'm hearing that in that bathroom scenario. I'm hearing like, we spend all the money in the world. But this has to be done by the time that you're in laws calm because they need a really nice bathroom. Otherwise, it's not going to be a fun in law visit. That's the kind of conversations that you need to repeat back. And as soon as they feel heard, they're like, Oh, I feel safe. They know what I need.
Speaker 1 25:37
That is fabulous. And y'all listening probably didn't expect that from a lawyer. So, Jamie, the next segment in the podcast is a fun little rapid fire q&a that we're going to do. Is there anything that you want to leave our listeners with, before we get into some fun and games?
Jamie 25:57
No, I think it's just, I hope the common theme that we've sort of come to is just like, get comfortable around asking for information about legal, get yourself covered, don't avoid it. Even if you've been in business 30 years, and you've never had a legal issue. That's incredible, I'm super happy for you. stuff still can come up. So I just, you know, I get that it's a scary thing. But even just having an initial strategy session with an attorney just so you understand where you know, things can be improved or where your risks might be. It's just It goes a long way. I
Speaker 1 26:32
probably should schedule one of those with you. Anytime that notice, I'll hold on, let me write that down. And then what we'll do at the end of our conversation is I'll make sure that everybody knows where they can find you. And we'll have all this information in the show notes as well. So before we get there, let's do this rapid fire. So it is just a way for the audience to get to know you a little bit better. And nothing's off the table. Okay. We're gonna start off easy chocolate chip or oatmeal cookies, chocolate chip, red or white wine.
Jamie 27:05
Oh, it depends on what I'm eating.
Speaker 1 27:09
So both Yes. That's the answer. Who's your favorite superhero?
Jamie 27:14
Oh, gosh, Wonder Woman.
Speaker 1 27:18
I've loved those new movies with gal Godot. She is just such a badass. Oh, I
Jamie 27:23
love her. She's awesome. Yeah. I wasn't a big fan of the 1984 one that was a little painful to watch. But the original wife is
Speaker 1 27:31
good. And well. Yeah. So what did you want to be when you were growing up? Oh, an
Jamie 27:36
engineer.
Unknown Speaker 27:36
Which you did?
Jamie 27:38
I well, I got the degree and then it was like, I don't want to do this.
Unknown Speaker 27:44
You've just got a big brain. I
Jamie 27:46
like math and science.
Unknown Speaker 27:48
So that's fun. Moving on, what is your favorite form of exercise?
Jamie 27:52
I take a really amazing boxing class. Yeah, it's really cool. Yeah, local gym here. That's my favorite.
Speaker 1 28:01
There you go. So yeah, negotiation, even if you don't win, yeah, just knock them out. Or your dog or cat person, dog. What kind of dog
Jamie 28:11
so unfortunately, everybody in my family except for me is allergic to dogs. I know so we do not have a dog but my children very badly wish that they could
Speaker 1 28:24
have you and I'm getting so far off topic. And so much not rapid fire but I believe so I've got morkie and a Yorkie poo. And they're they're hypoallergenic not
Jamie 28:37
for my family. Unfortunately there is no such thing as a hypo allergenic dog for my family know that there are many people that absolutely can be allergic to dogs and have but
Unknown Speaker 28:51
it's something deeper than that. dander it's the
Jamie 28:53
saliva actually believe it or not, not everybody is most people are not allergic to dog saliva but right happens that my family is
Speaker 1 29:04
there you have it, y'all. Okay, so back on track. What is your favorite book?
Jamie 29:08
Oh my gosh. I was just rereading, cuz she just passed away the Year of Magical Thinking by Joan Didion. That is it will not I mean, it is not happy. It is a tough book to read.
Speaker 1 29:21
But it is beautiful. Interesting. Joan Didion. So good. Okay, introvert or extrovert?
Jamie 29:29
I think we all know I'm an extrovert.
Speaker 1 29:33
If you had one superpower, what would it be? Oh,
Jamie 29:36
I might have this conversation with my kids all the time. I love it. I'd be invisible. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I could actually spy on them is when you can bring out your right hook.
Unknown Speaker 29:49
What was the last time you took a nap?
Jamie 29:51
Ah, okay. Oh, I took a 10 minute nap on Sunday because my husband took my kids out to the park and I was just for some time. I'm in. I was just laying on the couch reading and I dozed off for 10 minutes.
Speaker 1 30:02
And it was glorious. That's the best. Nice. Okay, last one. If you could do anything other than what you're doing now, as a profession, what would you be?
Jamie 30:12
I think a photographer. Interesting.
Speaker 1 30:15
There you go. There's still time. There's still kind of, you know, I
Jamie 30:19
kind of liked this profession. So, you know, there's a reason I never went with that profession. But I love photography. And I love I love working with photographers, too. But it's, I love photography, I
Speaker 1 30:31
have a lot of respect. We all are. And now we all have a camera in our pocket with our phone.
Jamie 30:36
I just play with that. I have the amount of pictures on my camera. It's just it's I mean, my phone is gonna just like just one day, like wave a white flag and be like, please stop. over now. My kids steal my phone and I find pictures of selfies of them. I found six selfies of my younger son. I just opened it up. I was like, when did you do this? He fell off his chair. He's like that was Saturday.
Unknown Speaker 31:00
That's hilarious.
Jamie 31:02
How do you kids? My youngest is about to turn eight and my oldest
Speaker 1 31:07
is 10. Oh, how fun. How fun. That is amazing. Well, Jamie, thank you so much for being on the show today. Thank you hashtag legal. I know our audiences loved everything you've shared. So let them know how they can connect with you.
Jamie 31:22
Sure. So our website is hashtag all spelled out dash legal.com. We share a lot on Instagram. So you can find us there at hashtag all spelled out underscore legal. The M business podcast is you can find it just on the hashtag Legal website or anywhere that you've listened to podcasts. And those are the three best places.
Speaker 1 31:43
That is fabulous. And it's the on business podcast. You end unbusy Yep. So fun. Thanks, Jamie, for being here. For those of you who could benefit from even more resources surrounding the business of running your interior design business. Join the growing community on my Facebook private group. It's called the interior designers business Launchpad. And don't forget to leave a review anywhere you're listening to this podcast. All right. Thanks, Jamie. Thanks. Hey, y'all.
Michelle Lynne 32:13
If you love the show and find it useful, I would really appreciate it if you would share with your friends and followers. And if you like what you're hearing, want to put a face with the name and get even more business advice. Then join me in my Facebook group, the interior designers business launch pack. Yeah, I know it's Facebook, but just come on in for the training and then leave without scrolling your feet. It's fun. I promise you'll enjoy it. And finally, I hear it's good for business to get ratings on your podcast. So please drop yours on whatever platform you use to listen to this. We're all about community over competition. So let's work on elevating our industry, one designer at a time. See you next time.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
