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Music. Welcome to design for the creative mind, a podcast for interior designers and creative entrepreneurs to run their business with purpose, efficiency and passion, because while every design is different, the process should remain the same. Prepare yourself for some good conversations with amazing guests, a dash of Jesus and a touch of the Woo, woo, and probably a swear word or two. If you're ready to stop trading your time for money and enjoy your interior design business, you are in the right place. I'm your host. Michelle Lynn, you
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hey. Hey everybody. This is Michelle Lynn. Welcome back to the design for the creative mind podcast. I am here with Mr. Jeffrey Shaw, and Jeffrey has a unique perspective on the luxury market. He was the go to family portrait photographer for many of the wealthiest families in the US for 40 years. As he says, he doesn't just know his clientele, he was in their closets. He's the author of three books, lingo and the self employed life, and the third sell to the rich will be released in April of 2025 He's also the founder of the exceptional Business Academy and the self employed business Institute. Wow. Jeffrey, you've been busy.
1:32
Very much. But you know, it's easy. Busy is easy when you're when you're speaking to your core message. You know what you really believe in. And I was, I always tell my coaching clients the same it's like, busy becomes easy, because if you really know your stuff, you can't unsee it. Yes,
1:49
absolutely. And I think that our audience today, as interior designers, we all feel the same way. Yeah. And I was laughing when I was reading your bio, because we've been in our clients closets. It's a thing
2:04
100% I mean, my current keynote that I'm doing a lot of speaking on is called sell to the rich, as is my upcoming book, and I wrote it with designers in mind. You know, I mean, I speak in a lot of it different industries, but designers were forefront on my mind as I was creating this talk, because a I just I love people with good taste. I get to share as I go to speaking engagements, and I have a big affinity for shoes. Designers always notice my shoes, and I appreciate that. So I get great I like people with good taste. I also shared an office for a number of years in New York City with an interior designer, one of New York City's premier interior designers. Fun I shared an office with her so I got to see the business, kind of from the inside.
2:50
And also the one of the most common threads in my 16 years of coaching is I've coached people in so many different industries, but the one thing they all have in common, as is true with it designers as well, is they're really good at what they do, but they struggle with the business side. Yeah, absolutely. I was thankfully blessed with a creative mind, so I was able to be a good photographer. Um, but I'm a better businessman than I was a photographer. I love that, and that was really important. I mean, I always said camera, the camera was my vehicle, but luckily, I was more blessed with a really good business head. So now I use that, I leverage that side of myself to help other people that are really good at what they do, but struggle with the business. Amen
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to that. That's exactly what brought me here. At the same same way. It's like, how can we help creatives with the other side of the mind, yeah,
3:43
yeah, for sure. My my original podcast is now 10 years old. But when I launched the podcast in 2014 it was called Creative warriors. Oh, I love that. We rebranded in 2019 or so when I came out with my book The Self Employed life, and we rebranded it, the podcast to the self employed life, but it was originally called Creative warriors, because it really was originally built as a show for creatives in business, but I wanted to go. That's when I changed. It rebranded to self employed life was it was because so much of the audience were a lot of people get hung up when they're not in the traditional creative businesses, yeah, and I wanted to kind of let help them let that go and just say, Look, when you're self employed, when you're running your own business, it's different. It's different than what we've seen. It's different what we've been taught. It's different what traditional coaches and gurus are trying to teach us. We need to have different strategies, and that's why I rebranded.
4:39
Oh, I wish I would have found you back then. Holy moly, yeah.
4:42
Where were you 20 years ago? I know, yeah,
4:46
yeah, because it's the Wild West when you own your own business,
4:48
and that's the problem. And for your designers, that's the problem, right? We've all been handed and here's the thing. So we're here to talk about luxury as it relates to interior designers, and here in my. Uh, my program called the exceptional business academy, and it's a it's actually primarily education for it's both luxury businesses and non luxury businesses, because I figure imagine the impact non luxury businesses could make if they follow the concepts and principles of luxury businesses that I know all too well, having served the luxury market for 40 years and studying luxury brands. And one of the things I talk a lot about in the exceptional business academy is right up front, I make the separation between the ordinary world and the exceptional world.
5:34
Okay, so we live and exist in the ordinary world most of our lives. We shop at ordinary stores, we shop, you know, and we get, we receive. I'll say ordinary customer service, even when it's exceptional, or I should say even when it's really good, exceptional, really good customer service. Good customer service is ordinary, right, in that it's, it's expected, and this is the problem. Like, one of the things, yeah, as my book is coming out, one of the because, yeah, well, to your point, like your reaction to that, when it's not, it really stands out, yes. And that's the problem, right? That's one of the concepts I present in my upcoming book. Is that great isn't good enough anymore. We know it to be exceptional, because people accept, expect great customer service. They expect great quality. If they receive that, that's what they they got, what they expected. It doesn't stand out. Valid, very valid. If it's horrible, it stands out a lot. And put it people, it all over social media. But the fact matter is, and you know, love it or hate it, people's standards of expectation have gotten higher. Just look at what am. Look how Amazon has retry, retrained our sense of timing. Oh,
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even my six year old daughter's like, how come it's not here yet, mom, correct? So
6:58
it's, I mean, I love that you're using example of your six year old daughter, because if you remember back in the day when as marketers, we were we were told to market to the mentality of a five year old, as if there was a dumbing down of the world, right? Well, it's the other way around. Now, six year olds are really smart consumers. They know how to research. They know how to determine what they make comparisons like the bar has been raised as to the level of sophistication and the level and the standard of expectation that we're marketing to. So to be in the luxury field, to be a designer that stands out from the rest, you can't just be good, you can't be great. You have to be exceptional. And being exceptional is what luxury is all about.
7:45
So what do you think about like our brand and our brand image and all of those esthetics when you're when you are trying to attract a luxury client? I a lot of the people, a lot of the designers that I speak with, they're either I want to serve everybody, because everybody deserves good interior design, and I have to remind them, it's a luxury service. And then there's the others who just who really want that upper echelon. So how would you, or how did you or how do you coach your clients to I joke, be your own brand? Yeah,
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and you are 100% so here's, did that make sense? 100% every
8:33
designer listening to our conversation is in a luxury business.
8:38
Thank you.
8:39
I agree, right? And then within that, and I'll explain why in a moment, but within that, you have people that want to hit different levels of the luxury client. But here's why every designer is a luxury. Is a luxury business, because having a mature designer is a luxury when you are here's the best definition of a luxury when you are vying for discretionary dollars. You're in a luxury business. I'll give you an exact comparison. So as a photographer, our goal was to average, the average sale was $10,000 for a collection of photographs. Or, as I used to say to my clients, when they when I knew client inquired, they would always, you know, ask well, and they were, I said, very affluent, as you said in the intro, but they still, even the most affluent people, want to be careful. They're not stepping into something that they embarrassingly, can't get out of, right?
9:31
So they're very sensitive to to being careful that what they're doing. So they'll, they'll ask, you know, what is, what's, what can I expect the investment to be? My response was, how many homes do you have? Which is never what they expected to hear. And then say, well, four homes. And I'd say, well, then I would expect to spend 15 to $20,000 because I find most my clients invest in about $5,000 in portraits for each home, right? Because it's just reality. They'll have that. Primary home, which might be the one that they might put the largest portrait in, but they want memories of their different homes, and they're different in their different homes. Yeah, people that have beach homes love portraits of the beach in their mountain homes, and they like portraits of the mountain homes in the beach home. So they're buying portraits for all the homes, right,
10:17
and that, but you're absolutely right on point there, because you are sharing with every single space that you have
10:25
exactly so when I, you know, and I also put the burden of responsibility on them and that I don't, can't fault me that you have four homes. Or that's like, that's like, you know, being angry because you have to college educate all your kids. I'm like, you chose to have six kids. That's not on me, that's on you, right? Now, you have to educate them, um. So one is to understand that every designer is in a luxury business. Because I said when, as a photographer, I wanted, like our goal, was to get $10,000 per sale. I didn't worry about other photographers. Other photographers were trying to figure out how to make $500 right? I worried about where all the other places a client can spend $10,000 right? So it was $10,000 for a bracelet at the local jeweler, maybe $10,000 more in clothes, maybe a weekend away. That was my competition. It wasn't other people in the field.
11:11
But what I realized is that what makes you a luxury business is you're buying for where people can spend their discretionary income. And it's not an apples to apples comparison. Right through your marketing, you have to make them feel like this is the best place I could spend this $10,000 okay, so every designer listening is in a luxury business. You have to, you have to grasp that that you are vying for people's discretionary dollars, and that should never be taken for granted, because here's the thing, in my keynotes, my very first slide of my keynote says when money isn't an issue, everything else is. So you're working with a client when you're vying for people's discretionary income, whether they have a lot of discretionary income or a lesser amount, you are vying for that discretionary income. They have a lot of choices where they can spend that when money isn't an issue or a big issue or as big of an issue, they have a lot of choices. You have to make them choose you.
12:12
That's so succinct, because it's something that I think everybody feels but you putting it into words is you're on point,
12:19
yeah, and it's, again, it's you have to, you know. So then your question about branding. Love this question. Before the last cohort of the exceptional Business Academy, I did a poll. I asked people a series of questions, and one question was, What did what's the change you most wanted in your business? 70% of the participants said they wanted more ideal clients. And I'll bet a lot of your designers listening and would say they want the same. One of the other questions was, what do you currently believe are the biggest changes you need to make in your business? Not one, not one participant said they felt that they needed to work on their branding. So our very first class, I brought those results up. And I said, let me make something very clear, your branding, your brand image, your brand messaging, is 100% responsible for attracting your ideal clients. Imagine the disconnect. People are thinking, oh, I want more ideal clients, but they're not fixing their frontline brand image and messaging to attract the ideal clients and keep the non ideal clients away. Yes,
13:26
in today's world, like just your website, that's where people go first when they're gonna or not necessarily first, but it's, it's your it's your online business card
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percent, even if they've been referred to. And I a lot of people say, you know, especially designers, they'll often say, Well, my business is 100% referral. I get referrals from builders and other clients. And, like, I don't know about you, but anytime somebody gets me referral, I still go to their website and check them out absolutely and and if a friend tells me about the best restaurant they've ever eaten at, and I go to the website and the website doesn't impress me, I actually think my friend might be losing their marbles, right? Like, really, I'm not really, I'm not seeing it right? So your website has to hold up,
14:05
and it has to be across the board. So it has to be consistent on your Instagram and on your Facebook and your marketing collateral. What
14:13
you're saying is absolutely correct. It's the entire ecosystem of what you're putting out in the world. Here is a critical fact to understand research shows. This is a research done by Forrester group, one of the most notable market research firms out there, that people make a 70% decision to hire you before they contact you. This is so important for designers and luxury service businesses to Andrea stand because not so much with products, right, but luxury services people make their 70% on the way of deciding they want to hire you before they contact you. Because, again, I often remind my clients, you have to look at your own behavior like you're a business owner and a. And you're also a consumer. Look at your own behavior.
15:02
We do all our own self vetting and our research on our own. We if you, even if you're referred, you go to the website, you check out the social media. I mean, hell, people do that before they go on a date, right? I mean, social media is the modern day background check. So people are doing all this research, they have come to a conclusion. They're 70% confident they're going to hire you before they contact you, which is good news and bad news. The good news is, at that point, you just have to not screw it up. Like they're pretty convinced it's your job to lose, right, right? So that's the good news. The bad news is you have to wonder, what information are they gathering in the inter on the internet about you, right? And that's if, if people are getting non ideal clients, I can guarantee you, it's because what you're putting out in the world on your website and your social media is not sending smoke signals to your ideal clients that you are for them,
16:03
and this is what I was going to say as interior designers, We're known for our esthetics under present. So if our brand does not represent us, well, we're doing ourselves a disservice. And one of the things that I've learned having been in the business for this long is that you start off and you're not as sophisticated as you're going to be in five years and then another 10 years. So giving ourselves grace to just get started, I think, is really important, and not comparing ourselves to somebody who's been in business for 10 years when you're looking at somebody else's website and then looking at yours. So be aware of it. Elevate it to the level that you are capable of elevating to. And then your your clients get more sophisticated as you get more sophisticated,
16:51
yes, but you can't start from too low of a bar. You know, there so, and I know you wouldn't, but here, but you're you make them such a Gosh, it's such a fine point in that it's like, fine as an almost texture, like, it's such a finite point because, and this is such an underlying message of my upcoming book, that I'm it's actually hard to like to get out there in content and both a written and spoken word, but it's so important people get What you just said, because it's, I describe it as a symbiotic relationship, that when you step into the luxury market and you're working with, you know, just your exceptional clients, right? You just really work with a very sophisticated clientele. There's, there's a certainly a minimum bar of sophistication that you have to show up. But here's the thing, when you work with that clientele, they're so keen, they're so sophisticated.
17:49
And here's the biggest surprise of all, it certainly surprised me. They are more attuned to the energy that you're emitting than you can ever imagine. People think of rich people being more surface level. They're not. They got to where they are. They and being where they are has made them their radars are so up because being where they are has made them subject to so many you know, people targeting them and their antenna there they are some of the most perceptive people. Many of them, and a lot of my clients, were Wall Street folks. Their entire professions are based on having the instinct to foresee things coming. They're incredible. I just found, in general, affluent people are incredibly perceptive to how they feel about you, the energy you're emitting. So if you show up with a degree of sophistication and in what I refer to as clean energy, because if you if you want to serve the luxury market, and you have the attitude that you want to serve this clientele, because the roads are paved with gold, they will smell that a million miles away. So
19:03
interesting. You say that because it's like that desperation that you emit, yep, is
19:08
you're trying not to, right, even if it is repellent, even if you're trying to convince yourself that you're not showing up. Desperate. Reminds me of single, yeah, exactly. It happens in dating. It is, yeah, absolutely. And your, your sophisticated clients read that better than most. Okay, so, but here's the good news, if you show up with clean energy and our true desire to it's what I refer to this in my talks, as your it factor, right? You have to, and this is the inner work you have to do first. Like, what's your it factor? What's your reason for serving this clientele that's bigger than the money and bigger than chasing after serving them, which is just going to burn you out, right? What's your reason? When you establish that within yourself, you show up in no matter what your level of. Education of your website or presentation is it's good enough, but they read you as someone that that they want to help rise to the top. Okay? They love affluent clientele. They don't just like working with brands and services at the top of the game. They love being the ones that discover the new person. So they they're your advocates. They will pull what I refer to in my book is, in fact, the cover of my book sell to the rich, says it's more than a business book. It's a call to greatness. Because what happens in this symbiotic relationship this luxury clientele is they end up pulling out of you more than you thought you were capable
20:42
of. That's interesting, because I've seen and felt that you can feel it.
20:46
So then you rise to that next level. You have a better website, you're more sophisticated, you build out a team, you improve your services, you've gone to the next level, and then you level up, you go to the next level of clientele, and it happens all over again. So it's this symbiotic relationship between your growth, your call to greatness, and the leveling up of the clientele that you're serving. But it has to begin with the clean energy as to why you're serving the luxury clientele. It cannot be because you think it's the road to riches. It can't be because you're it's for your ego, they will read that, and they will, they will repel. So you have to really do the inner work, when working with the the luxury market, to be able to show up in such clean energy that that you just, it's, you've, they're, you're like, so whatever your it factor might be, but it's because you want to be the greatest
21:39
that magneticism, I don't know if that's a word, but you become magnetic.
21:43
Correct? Absolutely. And I said, and the affluent market loves to discover the latest designer, interior designer, clothing designer, photographer, like I couldn't believe once I showed up, once I put myself in the right place, I had people, you know, I had advocates just introducing me. I literally, I don't know if I've ever said this on a podcast, and it might be risky, but I had clients giving me private school lists back in the day, pre internet, like, when the entire student body was in a spiral book, right? They would share that list with me. It's like that would cause them to get kicked out of the school because they trusted you in a breach of privacy. But they're like, these are these are the people you need to know about, and they would give me private school lists. Wow. Why? Because they saw I was 23 years old. They saw something in me that they they really, they wanted to be a part of the success. That's the greatest reason for working with the Lord the luxury market that they do, they they love to help people rise to the top. But you must present yourself in such integrity and in such clean energy that you're serving this clientele because you truly believe it's whom you're meant to serve, and not that you're in it for the money. And by the way, we didn't says I came from lower middle class. Like, I was
23:02
just gonna ask you, I mean, like, but I've been so I've been loving listening to you, but I was gonna ask you, did you grow up in this environment?
23:11
I would say my upbringing was closer to trailer park than Tiffany's. Like, no, it was no, it was no. I grew up lower middle class in a small country town. It's about two hours north of New York City, which is now not so much a small country town. But you know, 60 years ago, when I was born, it was farmland. I mean, there was nothing there. So no, I grew up in a 1400 square foot Ranch Home with five people in one bathroom. There you go. So no, this was, how did
23:40
you get into how did you get into photography, but specifically into the like, How did you land in the luxury niche?
23:49
Sure, so photography, I honestly because of the environment in which I was growing up in, which is why I became self employed, because at a very early age I didn't see any opportunities. There were no there was no opportunity for higher education. My parents could never have afforded it. It was never talked about. And when you grow up in a small country school, like nobody talks about going on to university, like it's just you stay there, get out and go into construction, right? I mean, it's which is whatever else my family did. You know, I was the youngest of three boys, so they both my two older brothers, one didn't even finish high school to go right into construction. Certainly was not my path. I was going to museums like you know I was. I was not getting my hands dirty, dirty. So I didn't see any opportunities if I didn't take life by the horns and and just do it myself. I didn't see myself getting an education quite frankly, I didn't think I was very employable, because at that point my life is extremely shy. It's like, who would hire me? So I figured I'd better take this, this whole thing called life under control for myself, so I'll just make my own business, which started by selling eggs door to door. That's a whole other story.
24:58
So that's one way to get out of. Your shyness, you got that right and but I had a talent as a photographer, and I in high school, kept winning awards for my photography, so I decided to go off to photography school, having no idea what I would do with it, except perhaps photograph architecture, because I did love design, both interior and exterior. I love design, so I thought, well, maybe I'll be a an architectural photographer. During that program, I found I love photographing people even more. So I started photographing people. But the 40 years of my career, my portraits were always on location. I've never photographed in a photo studio. I wouldn't know what to do. I all my which is also my passion and love for design, is I had the opportunity to photograph families in the most gorgeous of homes in the US. So I've been in all these homes, 2025, 30,000 square foot homes, and I just loved them, and I loved the homes. But the turning point was so after photography school. I went back to my hometown trying to launch a photography business, but again, going back to I said earlier about vying for discretionary dollars. It was a community that didn't have any discretionary dollars. They were trying to figure out how to pay their rent, pay their mortgage. There was no money left over at the end of the month. So you can't sell a luxury product. And it wasn't even luxury priced. Yeah, it wasn't a necessity, right? So anything
26:25
they spend money on their own camera, go get a Polaroid, exactly,
26:29
and back the day, we didn't have cell phones, you know? And then early, not in the 80s, there were no cell phones and so, but it was a luxury, and people weren't willing to pay for so I a light bulb went off that my services were meant for people with discretionary incomes. So I was like, Well, who has discretionary income? People with discretionary income, right? They're affluent, right? Which, of course, I knew nothing about that world, but I knew I could learn it. And I figured at that point, I was 23 years old, looking at the reality that I can do I have one or two choices I can either maybe three choices I could get. I could could go to construction, get a job at a gas station or something, right? Or I could make my business more of a necessity, like I could specialize in weddings, or I could specialize in high school seniors, like the things in life, people have to but I hated both of them. I hated the thought of photographing weddings and high school seniors. I decided that I would fundamentally believe that there's a world of people out there waiting for me to show up. And I realized those people that are waiting for me are rich. I don't know anything about them, but I can learn about them. So that's what I did. I I spent every dollar I could possibly I had or I can make. I would go to New York City, and I would study the customers going to luxury brands. I didn't so much like Ralph Lauren was launching his flagship store in the 80s. At the time, Bergdorf Goodman was one of my favorite stores to go to, to study. And I didn't so much study the brand, but I paid attention to the behavior of the customers, and also I pretended, I imagined I was that customer, that I was my ideal customer. And I paid such close attention to what to what am I? What do I need to see here and feel in order to beam the customer I wanted to attract? That's That's so interesting
28:20
to that there's so many times that I've repeated that you have to Who do I have to be in order to do the things I want to do and have the things I want to have. Because so many people first think that they need to have something in order to be somebody. But you have to step into that in your and like, be that person internally. And I mean, you literally went and did that at 23
28:45
and it's not fake it till you make it. And I want to be very clear on that, because, again, fake it till you make it is an energy. They will smell a million miles away. It's what I refer to it. I call embodiment, where it's a practice of embodiment. It's not faking it to you making it. But you need to see their world from their perspective. You need to like you need to to understand the in the luxury marketing. If it's not a world that's familiar to you, need to step into that world and you need to pay attention. What do I if I were them? What do I need to see, hear and feel? What is, what does pricing look like? What so the first thing I the first change I made, just as an example, my photography business up to that point was called Light images.
29:30
The first thing I observed by going to high end brands is that designer names had a cachet to them, and I was blessed with a an uppity sounding name, right? Jeffrey Shaw, right. So Jeffrey just sounds like a butler. I had never called myself Jeffrey in my life. I was just Jeff, right? But Jeffrey Shaw had a designer, so I immediately changed my business name to Jeffrey Shaw like that was going to be the brand I was going to put out in the world to the luxury market, right? Pricing cycle. The key lesson I learned here, Michelle, that I really want to point out, that I want everybody to hear, is that, and I find this to be almost a flaw in the world of luxury marketing conversations, is that market research and data trends, it's all good information to know, but nothing, nothing will ever be more important than understanding the psychology of the luxury client. And that is what gave me the legs up. I studied the behavior. I studied their emotions so that I could replicate that.
30:38
Imagine trying to bake a cake without a recipe, you kind of know what the ingredients are, but you don't know how to put it all together. After lots of hard work and trying different combinations, all you are left with is a sticky situation and a stomach ache. Babe running an interior design business can feel exactly that same way. That is why I created the interior design business bakery. This is a program that teaches you how to bake your interior design business cake and eat it too. If you don't want to figure out the hard way and you want guidance to follow a recipe that has already been vetted, someone that has already been there and done it, and will help you do it too. Then check out the year long mentorship and coaching program, the interior design business bakery. If your interior design business revenue is below 300,000 or if you're struggling to make a profit and keep your sanity. This is the only program for you. You can find that information at designed for the creative mind.com. Forward, slash, business, dash, bakery, check it out. You won't regret it.
32:01
So did you learn that from the luxury brands like, is there something at Bergdorf that they know that we need to know absolutely, absolutely, I'll go sit at Neiman's tomorrow.
32:15
Yeah. So my first, my first book, which came out in 2018 is called lingo, and I unpack a lot of this journey in the book as the basis of the book lingo. And lingo is a brand messaging book. It is a, I call it Ling. I called it lingo because it's about learning the secret language of your ideal clients. Like, what's their lingo? Like, it's, you know, it's, it's really emotionally understanding their secret language, and how do you, how do you trigger it? How do you, how do, how do you have this relationship with them? Much of what I learned is based on Bergdorf Goodman, and I'll give you one key lesson, that's my favorite story to tell. And when I tell in the book and from the stage when I speak, I call it the no tape story because I went to Bergdorf Goodman, I actually had one of my brand new luxury clients, one of my very early clients, made a comment to me that while my photographs were beautiful, my packaging didn't hold up like right. So thankfully, again, you know, she was brave enough to point that out to me so I can improve myself, because she saw in me potential to be great, right? So I went to Bergdorf Goodman one day specifically to see how they packaged things I didn't know, not having been from that world. So I bought, I had $20 on me, so I bought a tiny little votive candle, like, literally, the wax, like there was no vessel. It was just like a $20 candle.
33:43
And I asked her to be gift wrapped. And when the woman was at the gift wrap counter, I went over to the gift wrap counter. I asked her to show me how to wrap it. I told her exactly what I was doing. I was trying to learn here. So she showed me how she wrapped this candle in wads of tissue paper, like layers and layers of tissue paper for this tiny little candle. And then all that tissue paper and the candle went into inside a silver metallic box, beautiful, which is their signature box. And then the box was tied with a purple ribbon. Then she looked up at me, and she said, in the most profound seriousness, she said, don't use any tape. Now, coming from the upbringing I did, I'm thinking. I'm thinking to myself, gosh, we wrapped our Christmas presents in duct tape and newspaper. Yeah, why can't I use any tape, like duct tape? I went to school, to school with my pants hemmed with duct tape. You know, just duct tape is the solution to everything. And here this woman's telling me you can't use tape. So I asked her why, and she said, Well, this client is very particular, so this is the teaching part. She said that this clump and they get at home, they're going to untie the ribbon, take off the box top, fold back all the tissue. Make sure the candle isn't broken. Make sure it's in perfect shape. Refold the tissue paper. Put. The box top out and to retie the ribbon before they give it as a gift. And here's what stood out to me, not only was it a great tip, and how I then packaged our portraits for 40 years, tissue paper, no tape,
35:14
right?
35:15
What really stood out to me that I think and I speak to this now, when I as I coach my clients and students, I call unbreakable bond level of service. As I was saying earlier, the ordinary world can give great customer service to serve the luxury market today, you have to create an unbreakable bond level of service. And what creates that is knowing your clients so well that you know what their life looks like when they're not in front of you? Because every great customer service is great transactional customer service. It's great service when the client is in front of you. You want to blow people away. Know them so well. You know what their life looks like when they're not in front of you? And that's what Bergdorf Goodman taught me it's like, oh my gosh, this brand knows the behavior of their customers at home when they untie the box, the ribbon and the take off the box top and fold. But like, they know their customers so well. They know how they act and how they behave, that when you can do things in your business and as designers, it may take some creativity, but wow, some things, I think, with design, this will show up primarily in the details, right? Like you thinking of details like, one thing that stands out to me is like the the dog food dog food drawer that pulls out, like your suggestions for people to include things like that you're you're building it into the design that becomes memorable.
36:46
I also think even just the quality of paper that you use when you're handing them to your contract, yes, you can't just, I mean, just those small details are noticed if they're not there, especially,
36:59
yeah, and even if, I mean today's world, if we're these, these, this is the question we always have to ask ourselves, even if we have to deliver that contract electronically, digitally, how can that be a better experience, right? How can it look prettier? Right? Because they're, they might be printing it out on their own printer paper, but they know, even digitally, the design of the contract looking different than somebody else's, right, right? All the communication, one thing I speak about in my my business academy all the time, is creating a frictionless experience. Luxury needs to be frictionless. They don't want to get hung up on how to pay you. They don't want to get hung up on technology. They don't want to get hung up on tree figuring out how to reach you or appointments or it needs to be a frictionless experience where they can just go about their day and their lives and enjoy what you're offering them in the most frictionless way possible.
37:59
That's it's so incredibly true, and it's what we want anytime we're being served. So I think it's exponentially more so with the luxury market, because if not me, they're going to go to another designer, correct?
38:15
I mean, if you think about the most luxurious dining experience, the most luxurious dining experience. Of course, there's no prices on the menu, but that's not to be that. You know, the reason the psychology behind there not being prices on the menu is not because it's an uppity thing to do. It's because when money isn't an issue, it doesn't matter. So don't have it there as a friction element, right prices. Price is a friction, right? Dining creates a lot of that was this design, as I say, nickel and diming creates friction. Oh my gosh, yes. So if you're in a business with like, as designers are, with all those additional services, oh my gosh, just lump it all together, or make it simple, or round things off, like I would say to clients coaching, clients of mine, you can't complain about being nickeled and dimed if you're nickel and diming. Oh,
39:07
I that is preach. Preach. It's so true, and that's why we shifted to our value based fees. It's a it's a flat fee, because it's so much easier, and clients never I mean, I was scared. This is part of what the question I want to ask. Want to ask you. I was scared shitless the first time I put forth a value based fee, yeah, because I thought that they were going to balk at the total,
39:31
which was client probably felt relief, so much
39:34
relief, and it was so such a small amount, in retrospect. Yeah. But how do you, how did you come from, maybe a lack of abundance, and how did you, how did your mindset change? How did you not assign your money stories to your client?
39:52
Well, I'd say and the and I rarely say this, only because it's amazing. You know, people can. Just jump to judging too quickly. This can sound uppity, but I say it for this year, the greatest satisfaction for me, the greatest resemblance of my own success, was the fact that I used to go to Bergdorf Goodman to study the customer's behavior. And, you know, looking back, I laughed because I was wearing, like, a members only jacket and blue cargo pants. Like, yeah, clearly I didn't fit in, right? But within once i i learned what I needed to learn, I applied what I learned. Within just a few years, I became a customer Bert or Goodman, and have been now for decades, like, that's where I go to shop. That's where I go to buy Christmas gifts and ornaments. And the SAT this as a kid who came from nothing, the satisfaction of going from where you went to study to actually being able to afford to shop there is astronomical. And I say it not from a place of ego, but I want people to understand that if you don't come from the world of luxury, but that's who you feel you are meant to serve. Your journey, opportunity is wide open to you, just as it was for me. I love that, yeah, and I also I like to I like to share this story is proof that what I teach works. It's proof that I apply I teach now the principles that I learned and I got results, and you can get results too.
41:28
So, you know,
41:31
my money mindsets. You know, here's the I think the bigger issue is I easily could have made a lot of judgment and assumptions about wealthy people, because there's tons of stereotypes out there about them, and I heard them all growing up, as many of us have, right? Um, you know, they're they shipped the kids off the boarding school. And I mean, none of what I heard or or have ever heard as a stereotype about rich people has, none of it has ever been True. In my 40 years, I interacted with two clients in 40 years that I fired, if you will. Like one, one was a client who I just said, I'm no longer going to work with you. And another one was I sent her away before I even worked with her, because I didn't like the attitude. Two clients out of 40 years, I felt acted in an inappropriate, stereotypical, affluent way. Two in 40 years, I didn't find there to be any truth to the stereotypes. I also do believe back to the clean energy, you know, or karma, whatever you get back what you put out. And I truly when I learned my lesson trying to start my a business my hometown, and I learned the lesson that I was I meant to make this service available to affluent people. It wasn't about money, because I didn't understand what a lot of money was, right? It wasn't about ego.
43:00
It wasn't because I put them at a pedestal. I genuinely wanted to produce something that people appreciated and were willing to pay for, and I always held on to that for 40 years. So I don't know that I had money hang ups as much as I'm so grateful that I didn't buy into the stereotypes and judgments and right? One, a very, I won't say who, but a very well known luxury brand that we all know reached out to me to possibly offer some consulting within for their their sales associates, right? I literally said to the person reached out to me, it's like you're one of the most famous brands on the planet. What can I? What can you learn from me? And they said that their associates, almost all of which don't come for the luxury market, just like I didn't, they tend to have a lot of assumptions, and they they feel that that energy is coming across to their customers. And they have customers that complain are and then I actually remembered one of my own photography clients sharing a story with me when she shopped at a very high end store, and just, it was a jewelry store, and that jewelry brand completely, just they were very judgmental, and it just, it went all wrong. Oh, and she swore them off. She'll, I'll never go back there, you know. So I think it is a real problem in the luxury brand.
44:28
Yeah, that's something that I hear a lot about from, I think,
44:33
and for designers as well, like, if you're stepping into the world, that might be one that you don't come from, just do so in complete integrity, without judgment, without assumptions. When I announced that my book sell to the rich is coming out, I announced it recently on social, and somebody asked me in the in the comments on social, will you be speaking in your book? Will you be speaking? Could do how to handle difficult rich clients? And I said, well, first of all, let's not make assumptions that rich people are difficult customers. Yeah? Like,
45:11
if they're an asshole, they're an asshole with or without money.
45:14
And I said to him, and he replied, and I replied back and said, what if the money has nothing to do with it? And this is just an awful person, right? But inherently, there's this assumption that rich people are going to act entitled. Rich people are going to be more demanding. One of the things I always say about even that phrase demanding or discerning, heard all the time in luxury, oh, it's a discerning clientele, a demanding clientele. I said, Well, maybe you need to reframe that and it's a deserving clientele. Oh, that's good, right? They're not acting demanding or being discerning. They deserve the utmost. They have the money for it. They may be they may have worked for it. They may have inherited. It doesn't matter. They can afford and deserve the best. So they're not being demanding or discerning, they're deserving, and show up in that attitude, it will change your interaction with them. Yeah,
46:07
if it's your job to lose especially, yeah, exactly claim it. So let me ask you a little on a more personal note, is, what would you be doing if you weren't coaching? What would you be doing?
46:21
Yeah, gosh, I don't know. Because, I mean, here's
46:23
the crazy. I mean, it's, I was 100% photographer for 25 years. So it's now been, actually 16 years that I got this coaching bug in me, when I actually went to coach training. And I was really always been into personal development. So I just want to grow as a person, right? So, but for prior to that, I mean, the first 25 years, 100% of my income came from being a photographer. 15 of those years, I had an eight week waiting list, so I was very in demand. No problem getting work. And at the peak of, you know, the peak of one's career life. I was married, had three kids, business, doing extremely well. I just had this sense that there was something greater for me to offer the world, right? And so 16 years ago, I started, I'll say very slowly. I mean, I actually just a year ago, officially, last September, I officially retired from being a photographer. I did my last photo shoot a year ago, this past September, prior to then. I mean, I only did like six shoots last year, 10 shoots the year before. I've been phasing out for 16 years until last year. Was the the final year and as a lot of us go through career transitions, so one sort of another.
47:47
If you had asked me 16 years ago why I was on this planet, I would have said to be a photographer. I've because I felt the photograph, the photographs I was creating, were meaningful. They were being handed down. But today, my answer is very different. My answer now is that those 25 years, the 40 years as a photographer, were my learning lab for coaching people, and admittedly, which is why the book sell to the rich is just coming out next year, is because it's taken me all these years to come to terms with what I know in the luxury market, it became for me, such like you said the beginning, it just as your designers are like in their closets, it was such an intimate relationship with my clients, I don't know that I could see it for what it was, and I didn't know if I would share as openly as I Can. Now that makes sense. I'm not telling personal stories, but in hindsight, I can unpack much better how incredibly moving the experience was and how much greatness they pulled out of me, and what I learned that, as I said, I would like to see even non luxury businesses uphold a standard of luxury businesses, because even if you're not in a luxury business, and again, all you designers are, but even if you're not in a luxury business,
49:08
I think today, the standard is doing business with you must feel like a luxury otherwise you don't stand out, then you're ordinary. Yeah, so I don't know, who knows. I mean, again, if you had asked me what I would bill you doing 16 years ago. I couldn't imagine anything else right now. I can't imagine doing anything other than sharing what I learned from this clientele over 40 years. It's my greatest joy. It feels like it's my purpose, and I think it's probably I'll be doing for the next 10 to 15 years. Yeah,
49:35
I totally understand that. It's a as as a coach to interior designers. It's the same thing. It's like this. I know this is where God has me is to assist others in maybe avoiding a lot of the mistakes and the the heartache that goes with being your own business owner 100%
49:53
and I think one of the social changes that shifted to make the work you and I do so much more important is that. Uh, you know this whole idea people like my, my typical clientele is somewhere between, you know, 40 and 60 although I have a 73 year old client. Now that's awesome, but they're probably 40 to 65 so we're working with people who are doing, you know, these, these, you know, third chapters, if you will, or whatever, you know, yeah, um, and one of the core emotional elements of them is that they don't want to take forever to figure this stuff out. That's the beauty of using it. That's why you hire a coach. Yeah. I mean, don't take five years to figure out what we've already figured out. And people in midlife have this inherent like they want to get to it. They don't want to take five years, 10 years of experimenting, as you and I had to do in our journeys. That's why we're here. When you're doing the work that we you and I do to support others. Really, I think one of the, what I hope to the greatest advantages I think we can offer, is to compress time, save people time. Well,
51:00
speaking of which we're I'm pushing the limit of probably, of anybody listening, but it's I've been so just enamored by what you've had to say. And I'm sure our listeners have been, where can they connect with you? Sure,
51:17
so I'm not hard to find on social or any other medium. However, my website is Jeffrey shaw.com I've spoken a couple times about the exceptional Business Academy, which is the real training on how to stand out, how to go from ordinary to exceptional. And they can find that at Jeffrey shaw.com forward slash teba, T, E, B, A, which is the acronym for the exceptional Business Academy. So Jeffrey shaw.com, forward slash T, E, B, A, they can find out more about that too.
51:49
And you have your own podcast.
51:51
I do. My podcast is called the self employed life. And again, the podcast itself is 10 years in the running, over 2 million downloads. I think we're, I don't think we've had 1000 episodes yet, but we're darn close. Yeah,
52:04
I'm gonna go subscribe, because I've just really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you so much. Thank
52:11
you for letting me speak to designers. Like I said, designers are my people. Yes, I just, I said, that's I do so much of my work, even as I'm writing my book in the final stages, like I've always, I always keep designers in mind because they represent luxury, they represent good taste, and yet I also understand the challenges, like people that are really good at what they do tend to not love the business side, and there's great opportunity to have an amazing design business.
52:38
I had so much fun, so much fun. Oh, I could talk to you for another six hours another time. Yes, we'll have to have some cocktails. Well, for those of you listening, if y'all want a business, bestie, I'll send you business tips, encouraging words, event updates directly to your fingers. If you text the word bestie, B, E, S, T, I, E, to the following number. You'll hear from me on the regular probably two to three times a week, with no spam. So listen up. It's 855-784-8299, jot that down. 855-784-8299, text the word bestie and y'all be great today and every day. Thanks for being here. Jeffrey,
53:21
thank you so much.
53:24
Hey, y'all. If you love the show and find it useful, I would really appreciate it if you would share with your friends and followers, and if you like what you're hearing. Want to put a face with a name and get even more business advice, then join me in my Facebook group, the interior designers business Launchpad, yeah, I know it's Facebook, but just come on in for the training and then leave without scrolling your feet. It's fun. I promise you enjoy it. And finally, I hear it's good for business to get ratings on your podcast, so please drop yours on whatever platform you use to listen to this. We're all about community over competition, so let's work on elevating our industry one designer at a time. See you next time you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
